What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[aveyond-dreams]

When Thancred discovered the reflections would be abandoned, that would have been the perfect moment for him to show some backbone and aggressively lose his mind in protest. Full on Jack Garland. Instead, he just stood there and took it. A common trend we're seeing these days, I know.

In any case, the true "messiah" of the game was in fact Elidibus/Zodiark despite his monstrous appearance. Venat may have stubbornly believed her way was the only way inline with her supreme arrogance but rather than casting her down as quite literally a fallen angel whose pride damned all humanity, it's just a "trial of wills!" and then we move on to the full on hope vs. despair nonsense in Ultima Thule.

Please have the cast react like human beings and stop subverting expectations for the sake of subverting expectations.

[KizuyaKatogami]

That still sounds just like every other "Punch God" plot, to be honest.



But this was one of the few elements of the story that was handled with a modicum of maturity and nuance. After the Forum makes its proclamation, the Scions make it clear that they will not get in their way for executing their own plans to survive the Final Days because 1) their plans are horrific, but still better than the alternative of annihilation and 2) there isn't any time left to debate this. This was exactly the sort of grayish morality that the expansion should have had more of.

But it literally gets rid of any nuance the scions had in ShB. Yshtola was skeptical of Hydaelyn,Thancred fought so much to save Ryne, yet here we are in EW, there’s no more skepticism of Hydaelyn from Yshtola, Thancred is somehow fine with a plan that would end in Ryne being killed, he says nothing about Minfilia being used as a vessel for hydaelyn and thrown away, and apparently everyone is fine with Krile serving as another vessel as well? Like come on now, this is 100% maximum bias towards Hydaelyn.

Also….this expansion literally was punch god. We literally unceremoniously offed both gods, who hardly got their own development this expansion, and now the alli raid is about punching more gods….it’s worse in every single way.

[aveyond-dreams]

But it literally gets rid of any nuance the scions had in ShB. Yshtola was skeptical of Hydaelyn,Thancred fought so much to save Ryne, yet here we are in EW, there’s no more skepticism of Hydaelyn from Yshtola, Thancred is somehow fine with a plan that would end in Ryne being killed, he says nothing about Minfilia being used as a vessel for hydaelyn and thrown away, and apparently everyone is fine with Krile serving as another vessel as well? Like come on now, this is 100% maximum bias towards Hydaelyn.

Also….this expansion literally was punch god. We literally unceremoniously offed both gods, who hardly got their own development this expansion, and now the alli raid is about punching more gods….it’s worse in every single way.

And the result is now we are left in a world whose most interesting elements have been stripped away with a section of the playerbase who would gladly subject the rest of us to an expansion of nothing but going on picnics with G'raha Tia and the animation budget being blown on various cuisines and eating animations. Meanwhile the team that brought us Heavensward is still locked into FFXVI which shows no signs of coming out anytime soon, so no one knows when they'll be back if at all.

[Skyborne]

When Thancred discovered the reflections would be abandoned, that would have been the perfect moment for him to show some backbone and aggressively lose his mind in protest. Full on Jack Garland. Instead, he just stood there and took it. A common trend we're seeing these days, I know.

In any case, the true "messiah" of the game was in fact Elidibus/Zodiark despite his monstrous appearance. Venat may have stubbornly believed her way was the only way inline with her supreme arrogance but rather than casting her down as quite literally a fallen angel whose pride damned all humanity, it's just a "trial of wills!" and then we move on to the full on hope vs. despair nonsense in Ultima Thule.

Please have the cast react like human beings and stop subverting expectations for the sake of subverting expectations.

When I got to the Moon with the Watcher basically admitting that yes, Hydaelyn did constantly lie about basically everything... but it was for a good cause! I immediately just pictured my WoL going "bullshit" and walking away... or interrupting the guy. In fact I got up from my seat and did just that, because my nodding lobotomized tool of a self-insert would not.

Anyway, the real lesson here is that you suck and deserve to go extinct unless you go through a convoluted and specific series of events and impress/suck up to the right giga-narcissist who holds the shiny keys.

[Theodric]

That still sounds just like every other "Punch God" plot, to be honest.

Both Elder Primals ended up being fought and killed, though.

I've never cared about Venat. To me, Hydaelyn always came across as shady, manipulative and unworthy of trust. The only time she was tolerable to me was during the Elpis storyline and even then it was ruined by the sheer weirdness of her reasoning for the Sundering and genocide of her people.

We learn that Zodiark did nothing wrong and was falsely painted as a villain. The Scions didn't even bother trying to defend him in any meaningful capacity and despite it being revealed that Zodiark was the true saviour of both past and present Etheirys, he's barely mentioned again.

Teaming up with the demonic looking guy who is actually benevolent would have been more satisfying to me than being forced to stick with the delusional self proclaimed 'supreme deity' who slaughtered her own people.

[CrownySuccubus]

When Thancred discovered the reflections would be abandoned, that would have been the perfect moment for him to show some backbone and aggressively lose his mind in protest. Full on Jack Garland. Instead, he just stood there and took it. A common trend we're seeing these days, I know.

Umm, but he already knew. He asked the Watcher what would happened to the reflections and the Watcher confirms that they would also be destroyed. Then, just before they leave the moon, the Scions have already made up their minds that their primary focus is going to be on stopping the Final Days than running from it. Thancred flat out asks you to talk to Ryne before you go look for Elidibus and to tell her the truth and ask for her insights. She likewise gives you her blessing to focus on stopping the Final Days and says she believes in all of you. Thancred having a temper tantrum because the First would be abandoned would be redundant to what we'd already established and, furthermore, would have been absolutely pointless because there's no way for anyone except the Ascians and the WOL to travel between the worlds anyway.

But it literally gets rid of any nuance the scions had in ShB. Yshtola was skeptical of Hydaelyn,Thancred fought so much to save Ryne, yet here we are in EW, there’s no more skepticism of Hydaelyn from Yshtola, Thancred is somehow fine with a plan that would end in Ryne being killed, he says nothing about Minfilia being used as a vessel for hydaelyn and thrown away, and apparently everyone is fine with Krile serving as another vessel as well? Like come on now, this is 100% maximum bias towards Hydaelyn.

Minfilia chose to sacrifice herself to save the first. Krile flat out says multiple times that she chose to be used on the occasions Hydaelyn did it.

Again, I don't like Hydaelyn in EW either, but you guys are reaching too hard to find things to be angry about.

Both Elder Primals ended up being fought and killed, though.

Both out of unfortunate necessity, though. I'm not against the fact that you had to fight and kill the elder primals. I would have been against yet another "Only Mankind is the true arbiter of morality and destiny!" message.

We learn that Zodiark did nothing wrong and was falsely painted as a villain. The Scions didn't even bother trying to defend him in any meaningful capacity and despite it being revealed that Zodiark was the true saviour of both past and present Etheirys, he's barely mentioned again.

Teaming up with the demonic looking guy who is actually benevolent would have been more satisfying to me than being forced to stick with the delusional self proclaimed 'supreme deity' who slaughtered her own people.

I mean, Zodiark was a skin suit for Fandaniel the one time you see him, soooo....

[KizuyaKatogami]

Umm, but he already knew. He asked the Watcher what would happened to the reflections and the Watcher confirms that they would also be destroyed. Then, just before they leave the moon, the Scions have already made up their minds that their primary focus is going to be on stopping the Final Days than running from it. Thancred having a temper tantrum because the First would be abandon would be redundant to what we'd already established and, furthermore, would have been absolutely pointless because there's no way for anyone except the Ascians and the WOL to travel between the worlds anyway.



Minfilia chose to sacrifice herself to save the first. Krile flat out says multiple times that she chose to be used on the occasions Hydaelyn did it.

Again, I don't like Hydaelyn in EW either, but you guys are reaching too hard to find things to be angry about.



Both out of unfortunate necessity, though. I'm not against the fact that you had to fight and kill the elder primals. I would have been against yet another "Only Mankind is the true arbiter of morality and destiny!" message.



I mean, Zodiark was a skin suit for Fandaniel the one time you see him, soooo....

No one is reaching. We went from almost half of the scions being suspicious of Hydaelyn to none at all in EW. That is a clear in favor of her, especially since you’d think if they’re already suspicious of her, being told about how she’s lied and kept secrets should make it even worse, but it doesn’t. Also, your argument is because they were pressed for time and worried about the final days? Funny how they didn’t seem that pressed when they were playing dress-up with rabbits, having lunch and coffee dates etc. Convenient.

I think the most jarring piece though is, we have Alphinaud have a huge speech in ShB that should, make him completely hate and dislike Hydaelyn.

Alphinaud once said in Shadowbringers that living in a Rejoined world would be against his beliefs, saying, "But what value is there in surviving when all our history, all our struggles will be erased? I cannot conscience such an act."

Yet he not once remarks upon this towards Hydaelyn, who literally did just that? Yeah no, very clear bias and there isn’t a reach going on.

[Theodric]

Both out of unfortunate necessity, though. I'm not against the fact that you had to fight and kill the elder primals. I would have been against yet another "Only Mankind is the true arbiter of morality and destiny!" message.

...but that's exactly what we ended up getting, though. Shadowbringers was presented as a battle between two opposing heroes seeking to safeguard their respective people and continue their existence. With the position Venat had put them both in, only one could emerge victorious. Endwalker decided to try and subvert that by pushing the idea that the Ancients deserved to be subjected to genocide because a nutty, unhinged individual decided to condemn them to endure the Final Days and when they didn't react how she wanted them to (with no attempt to tell them what she was worried about) she then opted to murder them all.

I mean, Zodiark was a skin suit for Fandaniel the one time you see him, soooo....

Putting aside the simple fact that he didn't need to be merely a 'skin suit' the game will insist on non-entities such as Meteion, Alpha and Omega as being treated as living, breathing beings...so there was really no reason for the story to break those established rules for Zodiark. He was a being simply awaiting new orders from Elidibus but was performing the task of keeping Etheirys safe in the process.

Furthermore, he had countless Ancient souls held within him. We get a brief scene where they try to speak to the player character but they're quickly silenced. I felt that was missed potential - and sacrificing something inherently more engaging than a lengthy, unskippable cutscene involving G'raha eating a burger or Venat's WW2 style manifesto about why the Ancients supposedly needed to be wiped out for their own good.

[CrownySuccubus]

No one is reaching. We went from almost half of the scions being suspicious of Hydaelyn to none at all in EW.

They flat out accuse Hydaelyn of hiding things from them several times. The entire reason they needed to get to the Aethereal Sea was to talk to her directly and find out what is going on. Y'shtola at several times questions Hyd's motives for not speaking to anyone.

You are correct, however, that nobody calls out her actions when they see her, though.

Also, your argument is because they were pressed for time and worried about the final days? Funny how they didn’t seem that pressed when they were playing dress-up with rabbits, having lunch and coffee dates etc. Convenient.

The Loporritz were deliberately wasting your time and/or trying to convince you to abandon Etheirys entirely. The Scions needed to learn more about what the plans for the moon were.

The Scions only chose to relax and have "coffee dates" AFTER they barely averted or survived massive battles and traumatic risks. Hell, G'raha Tia was flat out overworking himself to the point of exhaustion because he was the Scion least took breaks.

I think the most jarring piece though is, we have Alphinaud have a huge speech in ShB that should, make him completely hate and dislike Hydaelyn.

Again, yes, I agree that the narrative is biased towards Venat's actions. But that doesn't change the fact that some of the arguments you guys are making ("Oh no! How DARE Hydaelyn use poor Krile, even though she said multiple times that she was willing?") are still looking for things to be angry about.

...but that's exactly what we ended up getting, though.

Only in meta-text, though. Most of what people are angry about here is due to viewing the morals of the story outside of what the story itself intended. Again, I agree with that assessment, but it's not the story that was meant to be told.

Furthermore, he had countless Ancient souls held within him. We get a brief scene where they try to speak to the player character but they're quickly silenced. I felt that was missed potential

I mean, would the WOL even know HOW to reach those souls after Fandaniel silenced them?

Besides, it's not like the WOL is even the one that killed Zodiark. All they did was defend themselves until Fandaniel killed Zodiark himself.

[KizuyaKatogami]

They flat out accuse Hydaelyn of hiding things from them several times. The entire reason they needed to get to the Aethereal Sea was to talk to her directly and find out what is going on. Y'shtola at several times questions Hyd's motives for not speaking to anyone.

You are correct, however, that nobody calls out her actions when they see her, though.



The Loporritz were deliberately wasting your time and/or trying to convince you to abandon Etheirys entirely. The Scions needed to learn more about what the plans for the moon were.

The Scions only chose to relax and have "coffee dates" AFTER they barely averted or survived massive battles and traumatic risks. Hell, G'raha Tia was flat out overworking himself to the point of exhaustion because he was the Scion least took breaks.




Again, yes, I agree that the narrative is biased towards Venat's actions. But that doesn't change the fact that some of the arguments you guys are making ("Oh no! How DARE Hydaelyn use poor Krile, even though she said multiple times that she was willing?") are still looking for things to be angry about.

Yes because the time that she uses Krile, it’s before we know the final days are actually coming, and it’s near the beginning of the expansion so Yshtola should still be skeptical of her, but she isn’t. It doesn’t matter if she’s willing but also….that again is my point, SHE SHOULDNT BE. Where is all of the suspicions and skepticism from ShB. It’s all done away. Krile is happy being Hydaelyn’s meat puppet. Yshtola and the others are fine with it, Thancred expresses no disapproval whatsoever even though he’d seen where it got Minfilia. I’m sorry but no, it’s the game bending over backwards for Hydaelyn, letting her do what she wants without any criticism whatsoever. It reminds me a bit of the games community tbh.