What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Kozh]

Thanks. For all to see:

I wonder if he's honest here, or just joking around/exaggerating with the fanbase since he knows estinien is popular. I really hope it's the latter, because otherwise, it's pathetic af.

[anhaato]

I though Sharlayan was going to end up being founded by Venat's followers and a large part of their secrecy was going to revolve around keeping the wisdom of the Ancients concealed from the public. Instead, we get a bunch of scholars equally seduced by Hydaelyn who at most are trying to keep the knowledge of the Final Days hidden.

I think most of us were expecting this, my personal expectation was that Nyunkrepf was sort of a "prophet" for Hydaelyn because Venat wanted to found a society that contained knowledge of the Star pre-sundering and that was the knowledge they were privy to that had to be hidden away at all costs. I really expected the big reveal to be that they knew everything about the entire history of the Source and every calamity thus far. Because of that they would think the Final Days was actually the 8th calamity happening and, due to their non-interference "charting the course of history, not altering it" stance, would try to force us into giving up our fight. I fully believed G'raha was in the deep bowels of Noumenon to find their hidden records of the calamities and the sundering (hello Gerun Oracles from 2015) to help aid our fight against whatever force was out there trying to repeat things, with a higher chance of success now that we can't create a new god or even reactivate the old one.

In a way we were partially right; they did come into direct contact with Hydaelyn somehow, and that was part of their big secret, but said big secret mostly turned out to be... a rocket ship. To the moon. To fly to a different planet. How incredibly disappointing it was to find that this all-knowing society actually didn't know jack compared to us. And sure, we saw a lot of things firsthand or received knowledge from primary sources that no one else knew of, but by god we make this smart people society look positively primitive. Completely killed any sort of intimidating vibes they had, at the point of the reveal I can only think "ok so they thought they knew everything and were being annoying about it?"

I was fairly certain they weren't going to have the WoL tempered because people would riot that their character had no free will all this time (which is laughable given how little agency we had throughout ARR and EW), but I still maintain Hydaelyn tempering makes more sense than what we got which was everyone trusting her implicitly and never questioning or criticizing her. Krile, in particular, I just wanted to smack. Every Scion, every scholar in Sharlayan, Midgarsomr, and basically anyone else who comes in contact with her falls under her thrall. Not to mention my own character going from "I can't trust you" to rather quickly returning to being her lackey.

Disagree with the fan reactions to tempering part, when the grand reveal that Hydey and Zodey were primals was released in the pre-Shadowbringers fanfest EVERYONE was losing their minds over the possibility of us being tempered by one of the most powerful primals in existence, and the blessing of light being more like a curse. Agree with everything else though. People were bringing up Ifrit's line in the beginning of ARR about us having been "claimed by another" or whatever he said when he failed to temper us, it was about to be the most insane foreshadowing... THEN THEY REMOVED THAT LINE WHEN THEY OVERHAULED MSQ IN 5.3!!! THEY RETCONNED WHAT COULD'VE BEEN ONE OF THE GREATEST PAYOFFS IN THE GAME!!! How METAL would it have been for us to kill Hydaelyn not because of some "test," not because we need both gods eliminated for "equilibrium" or whatever, but because we wanted freedom? And they wouldn't even have to have made her evil for this, it actually would've hit even harder if she was the neutral not-quite-good-not-quite-bad figure a lot of us thought she would be and we killed her for us and the people of the world's freedom regardless!

[Misplaced_Marbles]

And they wouldn't even have to have made her evil for this, it actually would've hit even harder if she was the neutral not-quite-good-not-quite-bad figure a lot of us thought she would be and we killed her for us and the people of the world's freedom regardless!

My thoughts exactly, and I'd say being tempered would have made it less egregius how the WoL has zero agency in anything since it turns out they were being lead by an aetherial leash this entire time. One would think it would also make winning back freedom from the self-appointed "mother" of the world feel more rewarding.

[EgilTheStressedMage]

My thoughts exactly, and I'd say being tempered would have made it less egregius how the WoL has zero agency in anything since it turns out they were being lead by an aetherial leash this entire time. One would think it would also make winning back freedom from the self-appointed "mother" of the world feel more rewarding.

I legit thought the voice after slaying Zodiark was her. I never would have thought it’d be anyone else.

[Lauront]

In a way we were partially right; they did come into direct contact with Hydaelyn somehow, and that was part of their big secret, but said big secret mostly turned out to be... a rocket ship. To the moon. To fly to a different planet. How incredibly disappointing it was to find that this all-knowing society actually didn't know jack compared to us. And sure, we saw a lot of things firsthand or received knowledge from primary sources that no one else knew of, but by god we make this smart people society look positively primitive. Completely killed any sort of intimidating vibes they had, at the point of the reveal I can only think "ok so they thought they knew everything and were being annoying about it?

And it was all at Hydaelyn's behest, too. There was a lot they could've done with Sharlayan in terms of prophecy, especially with the time alteration act G'raha pulled (which they wouldn't necessarily know about) potentially foiling any prophecies they were reliant upon.

Agree with everything else though. People were bringing up Ifrit's line in the beginning of ARR about us having been "claimed by another" or whatever he said when he failed to temper us, it was about to be the most insane foreshadowing... THEN THEY REMOVED THAT LINE WHEN THEY OVERHAULED MSQ IN 5.3!!! THEY RETCONNED WHAT COULD'VE BEEN ONE OF THE GREATEST PAYOFFS IN THE GAME!!! How METAL would it have been for us to kill Hydaelyn not because of some "test," not because we need both gods eliminated for "equilibrium" or whatever, but because we wanted freedom? And they wouldn't even have to have made her evil for this, it actually would've hit even harder if she was the neutral not-quite-good-not-quite-bad figure a lot of us thought she would be and we killed her for us and the people of the world's freedom regardless!

Was it removed? I thought it's his priest who says that, and he corrects them. Nonetheless, Garuda very, very definitively claims the WoL bears Hydaelyn's taint. A few other primals also utter similar lines indicating it, like Lakshmi (referring to the players' souls as stained.) They even had Ardbert muse as to whether he was tempered, then decide not to dwell on it, and those lines from the Word of the Mother that as the Ascians must serve Zodiark, so too did the likes of Ardbert have to serve as instruments of Hydaelyn's will; plus some of her words were pretty indicative of Minfilia being tempered.)

Honestly, the direction I thought they might take it all in was that the sundering was the result of a tragic misunderstanding, perhaps even instigated by a malicious third party (like Fandaniel, maybe), and that the thousands of years of serving as its heart may have warped Venat's mind, so that she doubled down on its necessity and employed the usual primal mechanisms to achieve her goals. So again, something like a Yunalesca, in primal form. As I said, I think what we got ended up being that, but it's more to do with how the story has a somewhat dissonant approach to it. As they developed tempering to not always be a case of total enthralment by the end of SHB (e.g. Emet-Selch or Tiamat, as opposed to the usual beast tribe tempering), there was room for involving it more re the WoL.

[CrownySuccubus]

Man, I don't like what we got, but I still wouldn't have liked yet another "Punch God for the GLORIOUS revolution of mankind!" story.

[Sicno]

Man, I don't like what we got, but I still wouldn't have liked yet another "Punch God for the GLORIOUS revolution of mankind!" story.

Instead we got a "God punch kick for the GLORIOUS revolution mankind never asked for!" story.

[Theodric]

Killing Venat for what she did to the Ancients would have been inherently more satisfying than the game trying to justify the genocide of a peaceful people who did nothing to deserve their fate. The game ended up leaning on all the stereotypical JRPG clichés in the final stretch anyway. Plus it could have led to working directly with Zodiark who, in himself, is inherently more interesting than Venat on many fronts.

One of the main reasons Endwalker simply doesn't work is because it has spent the entirety of its time up until now having characters lecture others on morality only to be cowed into silence as to avoid criticising 'mommy' in any meaningful way.

Venat as a Yunalesca figure wouldn't exactly put her in full out villain territory, either - it'd just have her double down on what she saw as the best way forward and require defeat in order for the protagonists to avert a second Sundering. On the basis of Venat being willing to abandon the Reflections the Scions should have been eager to confront and defy her...but there's barely a whisper of protest despite spending most of the previous expansion on the First and knowing full well who would be left behind.

[CrownySuccubus]

Instead we got a "God punch kick for the GLORIOUS revolution mankind never asked for!" story.

Yeah. I mean, I can't say it was a good choice, but I'll take it.

[CrownySuccubus]

Venat as a Yunalesca figure wouldn't exactly put her in full out villain territory, either - it'd just have her double down on what she saw as the best way forward and require defeat in order for the protagonists to avert a second Sundering.

That still sounds just like every other "Punch God" plot, to be honest.

On the basis of Venat being willing to abandon the Reflections the Scions should have been eager to confront and defy her...but there's barely a whisper of protest despite spending most of the previous expansion on the First and knowing full well who would be left behind.

But this was one of the few elements of the story that was handled with a modicum of maturity and nuance. After the Forum makes its proclamation, the Scions make it clear that they will not get in their way for executing their own plans to survive the Final Days because 1) their plans are horrific, but still better than the alternative of annihilation and 2) there isn't any time left to debate this. This was exactly the sort of grayish morality that the expansion should have had more of.