What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[linayar]

No, the result is exactly why she sundered it. We are specifically told by Venat herself that the entire purpose behind the Sundering was to induce mankind to death and suffering so that they could learn to overcome it rather than deny its existence. Sacrificing the lives to return to their old lives was an example of the Ancients denying the existence of suffering.

The result is accounted for in her action, but the immediate purpose was to stop the Ancients. The rest follows afterward. Like I said, an action does not have to have only a singular purpose.

Yes. You are literally correct.

If true, then the idea of staying on the planet would be pointless, so I don't think that is true.

Weakening Zodiark was a methodology to forestall the Final Days, but Venat is very clear when she sunders the world that the primary purpose was to teach mankind suffering.

Weakening Zodiark was to stop him from being used by the Ancients. If the Ancients had stopped after the first or even second sacrifice, there would not be a sundering.

Dude, are you serious?

If I permanently break one of your arms, and you die because you, say, later fall from a high ledge that you ordinarily would have been able to catch and pull yourself up from if you still had both working arms, then I killed you.

I don't know what you think an "injury" is, but reducing the health, abilities, and ability of person to defend themselves from harm is basically what an injury is.

Loss of creation magic is not necessarily an injury that I would equate to permanently having a broken arm.

What. What? I... what?

Yes, do you have image or video links? Or can you point to an unending journey where I can look?

[Rulakir]

It was admittedly really confusing because she said both "it was the only way to defeat almighty Zodiark" and "yes, it is as you said" to Y'shtola questioning if giving us the potential to manipulate of dynamis was the purpose of the Sundering in the same line. Was that her purpose all along? Or was that just her trying to make the best out of the bad situation? It's not nearly as clear as anyone in this thread would tell you. I'd be really interested in learning how that line was in the original Japanese and how it was translated in other languages.

Yoshi-P answered this in the Q&A LL.

4:27:25 - Was sundering the star the only way to save it?

Venat did not think the Ancients could stop Meteion being so dense in aether. She didn't think they could change as a people and thought that would always be their own undoing.

Yes, do you have image or video links? Or can you point to an unending journey where I can look?

Just off the top of my head:

- the cutscene after Qitana Ravel
- the cutscene in the Ocular where Emet describes the sundering
- the cutscene of Elidibus on the moon at the end of 5.0

Honestly, I think everyone should NG+ ShB after EW.

[CrownySuccubus]

The result is accounted for in her action, but the immediate purpose was to stop the Ancients. The rest follows afterward. Like I said, an action does not have to have only a singular purpose.

*sigh*

Venat sunders the world to permanently remove the Ancients' ability to go back to their perfect world so that mankind will never again know the paradise they once had. Again, she is VERY clear that this is why she is sundering the world.

If true, then the idea of staying on the planet would be pointless, so I don't think that is true.

The fact the death of the Star is inevitable, with or without the Final Days, is literally the entire point of Endwalker.

Weakening Zodiark was to stop him from being used by the Ancients. If the Ancients had stopped after the first or even second sacrifice, there would not be a sundering.

No, sundering the world was specifically to remove mankind's ability to reclaim their paradise. I repeat. Venat is very clear that this is the reason she sundered the planet.

Loss of creation magic is not necessarily an injury that I would equate to permanently having a broken arm.

Yes it the hell is.

Creation magic was the foremost power of an Ancient. It was what their entire lives, abilities and survival depended upon. When you go to phantom Amaurot in ShB, the Ancient shades there are aghast that you cannot do it, wondering how the hell you even get by in life.

Using creation magic was as fundamental to an Ancient as a human's ability to walk. When she sunders the world, Venat even calls it removing mankind's wings. And guess what, if you permanently remove a bird's ability to fly, then that is an injury.

[AziraSyuren]

Yoshi-P answered this in the Q&A LL.

4:27:25 - Was sundering the star the only way to save it?

Venat did not think the Ancients could stop Meteion being so dense in aether. She didn't think they could change as a people and thought that would always be their own undoing.





Just off the top of my head:

- the cutscene after Qitana Ravel
- the cutscene in the Ocular where Emet describes the sundering
- the cutscene of Elidibus on the moon at the end of 5.0

Honestly, I think everyone should NG+ ShB after EW.

lmao I can see why the dev team added a skill called Double Down now.

[KizuyaKatogami]

With how much people bring up the 3rd set of sacrifices, and how “major” it was in Venat’s decision…i don’t remember it even being mentioned in EW. Could someone point me to somewhere in EW where it’s mentioned? Especially in relation to her goal?

[KageTokage]

The only time it's ever mentioned at all to my recollection is in the final Elpis cutscene, where Venat claims that sacrificing more lives to reclaim the lost was "weakness".

We are never given further context to the "new life" which I feel was sorely needed to make it seem like a convincing reason for the Sundering to be necessary., because giving up the lives of some inconsequential beasts to spare your brethren from languishing for eternity as part of a god would hardly strike me as a sign of weakness.

[linayar]

Just off the top of my head:

- the cutscene after Qitana Ravel
- the cutscene in the Ocular where Emet describes the sundering
- the cutscene of Elidibus on the moon at the end of 5.0

Honestly, I think everyone should NG+ ShB after EW.

Thank you!

Yoshida said that the division between races happened over time, so I think that image was a summary in two parts:

The first part: "At the instant of the great sundering, 'twas not only the world that was shattered, but mankind itself."

That describes the sundering itself, which is true as mankind was shattered between those in the source and those on the shards.

Then the second part: "Thus were we divided into myriad races, each with its own unique imperfections."

That happens afterward and over time and generations. It does not necessarily mean that the first generation (the people who actually lived through the sundering) were divided into the races then and there, as Yoshida answered in the Q&A.

And I believe the other sources you referenced are along the same line of summarization, but of course, I would have to double check, but that is the impression I got.

No, sundering the world was specifically to remove mankind's ability to reclaim their paradise. I repeat. Venat is very clear that this is the reason she sundered the planet.

What? That's what I said? It's about stopping Zodiark because Zodiark is the means by which the Ancients wanted to reclaim their paradise.

Yes it the hell is.

Creation magic was the foremost power of an Ancient. It was what their entire lives, abilities and survival depended upon. When you go to phantom Amaurot in ShB, the Ancient shades there are aghast that you cannot do it, wondering how the hell you even get by in life.

Using creation magic was as fundamental to an Ancient as a human's ability to walk. When she sunders the world, Venat even calls it removing mankind's wings. And guess what, if you permanently remove a bird's ability to fly, then that is an injury.

There is no doubt that creation magic is fundamental to their society, but not to their being. So Venat removed their ability to fly, but they can still walk by their own power. Creation magic is something that can be taught, like with the Loporrits, or to the sundered with (and maybe even without) modification, like with the summon rituals.

With how much people bring up the 3rd set of sacrifices, and how “major” it was in Venat’s decision…i don’t remember it even being mentioned in EW. Could someone point me to somewhere in EW where it’s mentioned? Especially in relation to her goal?

It may not be a direct reference, but it is at least implied in that post Elpis scene.

They were talking about reclaiming what was lost, not about helping them with the Final Days (the first sacrifice) or about improving the post-Zodiark world (the second sacrifice).

[KizuyaKatogami]

It may not be a direct reference, but it is at least implied in that post Elpis scene.

They were talking about reclaiming what was lost, not about helping them with the Final Days (the first sacrifice) or about improving the post-Zodiark world (the second sacrifice).

I don’t think that’s implying what you think it is. Reclaiming what was lost could just as easily be them talking about the world that once was before the final days, aka restoring the floral and fauna(2nd sacrifice). Either way though i’m mainly talking about where she herself mentions it. If it was the main reason for what she did, i’d expect her to at the very least mention it a few times. The only thing i remember her mentioning numerous times is her doing it to create beings capable of manipulating dynamis and in her twisted mind, beings who would be able to suffer(even though her own people did).

[CrownySuccubus]

What? That's what I said? It's about stopping Zodiark because Zodiark is the means by which the Ancients wanted to reclaim their paradise.

No, Zodiark was merely a means. The point of the sundering was the induce mankind into suffering and death. Sundering the planet, and thus Zodiark, was only a means by which to accomplish this without undoing the laws of physics Zodiark had woven into place.

There is no doubt that creation magic is fundamental to their society, but not to their being. So Venat removed their ability to fly, but they can still walk by their own power. Creation magic is something that can be taught, like with the Loporrits, or to the sundered with (and maybe even without) modification, like with the summon rituals.

So let me get this straight. Your argument is that to remove an ability that a species has relied upon to not only create their society, achieve their own personal agency, and defend themselves is not an "injury" because technically they can still "walk".

Okay, so listen. If I break your kneecaps right now and you lose the ability to walk, it's okay because it's not fundamental "to your being". After all, you were born crawling, so if I remove the use of your legs, you should be able to get by just fine crawling under your own again.

Also, no. Creation magic cannot be taught. You either have it or you don't. No Ancient ever needed to be taught to do it; they make it very clear that every Ancient is born with the ability, and that no other beings besides them can do it. Same with the Loporitz. They were created with the ability. Likewise, you can't teach it to sundered beings -- summoning is the most similar you can get, and it's stated several times that it's not even close.

Even IF it were teachable...you know something that humans need to be taught to do? Walking. It takes human beings several years to learn how to walk, and if you lose the ability to do it for whatever reason (for example, through injury), it takes a very long time to learn it again. Feral children that were not taught to walk in their infancy find it pretty much impossible to learn later, and trying to teach them actually does more harm than good. So even if creation magicks were analogous to a learned ability (which, again they aren't), it would be the same as removing a human being's ability to walk on two legs. And there is no way to describe that other than to "injure" or "cripple" them.

[Brinne]

Walking. It takes human beings several years to learn how to walk, and if you lose the ability to do it for whatever reason (for example, through injury), it takes a very long time to learn it again. Feral children that were not taught to walk in their infancy find it pretty much impossible to learn later, and trying to teach them actually does more harm than good. So even if creation magicks were analogous to a learned ability (which, again they aren't), it would be the same as removing a human being's ability to walk on two legs. And there is no way to describe that other than to "injure" or "cripple" them.

Mankind has grown too complacent and full of hubris with that power that has ultimately led to the destruction of countless species and untold tragedy: opposable thumbs. Gentlemen, we know what we must do.

(Sorry, I'm still a bit stuck on "Where in the story does it state that the Ancients who were Sundered suffered the effects of being Sundered?" It may take me some more time to fully recover.)

On a slightly more serious note, this is why hypotheticals and propositions about "why the Ancients had to die" (the only one truly serious philosophical problem in FFXIV, one might say <_<) pointing at Creation Magic has always bothered me. It's innate to them. They are born with it. Babies can do it. It's like breathing to them, in their words. To say "creation magic is the problem" is essentially saying this race of people was just flat out "born wrong," and thus had to be eradicated because they're just biologically unacceptable to be allowed to live. It starts approaching that uncomfortable area quickly for me, again.