What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[KizuyaKatogami]

With how much people bring up the 3rd set of sacrifices, and how “major” it was in Venat’s decision…i don’t remember it even being mentioned in EW. Could someone point me to somewhere in EW where it’s mentioned? Especially in relation to her goal?

[linayar]

Just off the top of my head:

- the cutscene after Qitana Ravel
- the cutscene in the Ocular where Emet describes the sundering
- the cutscene of Elidibus on the moon at the end of 5.0

Honestly, I think everyone should NG+ ShB after EW.

Thank you!

Yoshida said that the division between races happened over time, so I think that image was a summary in two parts:

The first part: "At the instant of the great sundering, 'twas not only the world that was shattered, but mankind itself."

That describes the sundering itself, which is true as mankind was shattered between those in the source and those on the shards.

Then the second part: "Thus were we divided into myriad races, each with its own unique imperfections."

That happens afterward and over time and generations. It does not necessarily mean that the first generation (the people who actually lived through the sundering) were divided into the races then and there, as Yoshida answered in the Q&A.

And I believe the other sources you referenced are along the same line of summarization, but of course, I would have to double check, but that is the impression I got.

No, sundering the world was specifically to remove mankind's ability to reclaim their paradise. I repeat. Venat is very clear that this is the reason she sundered the planet.

What? That's what I said? It's about stopping Zodiark because Zodiark is the means by which the Ancients wanted to reclaim their paradise.

Yes it the hell is.

Creation magic was the foremost power of an Ancient. It was what their entire lives, abilities and survival depended upon. When you go to phantom Amaurot in ShB, the Ancient shades there are aghast that you cannot do it, wondering how the hell you even get by in life.

Using creation magic was as fundamental to an Ancient as a human's ability to walk. When she sunders the world, Venat even calls it removing mankind's wings. And guess what, if you permanently remove a bird's ability to fly, then that is an injury.

There is no doubt that creation magic is fundamental to their society, but not to their being. So Venat removed their ability to fly, but they can still walk by their own power. Creation magic is something that can be taught, like with the Loporrits, or to the sundered with (and maybe even without) modification, like with the summon rituals.

With how much people bring up the 3rd set of sacrifices, and how “major” it was in Venat’s decision…i don’t remember it even being mentioned in EW. Could someone point me to somewhere in EW where it’s mentioned? Especially in relation to her goal?

It may not be a direct reference, but it is at least implied in that post Elpis scene.

They were talking about reclaiming what was lost, not about helping them with the Final Days (the first sacrifice) or about improving the post-Zodiark world (the second sacrifice).

[CrownySuccubus]

What? That's what I said? It's about stopping Zodiark because Zodiark is the means by which the Ancients wanted to reclaim their paradise.

No, Zodiark was merely a means. The point of the sundering was the induce mankind into suffering and death. Sundering the planet, and thus Zodiark, was only a means by which to accomplish this without undoing the laws of physics Zodiark had woven into place.

There is no doubt that creation magic is fundamental to their society, but not to their being. So Venat removed their ability to fly, but they can still walk by their own power. Creation magic is something that can be taught, like with the Loporrits, or to the sundered with (and maybe even without) modification, like with the summon rituals.

So let me get this straight. Your argument is that to remove an ability that a species has relied upon to not only create their society, achieve their own personal agency, and defend themselves is not an "injury" because technically they can still "walk".

Okay, so listen. If I break your kneecaps right now and you lose the ability to walk, it's okay because it's not fundamental "to your being". After all, you were born crawling, so if I remove the use of your legs, you should be able to get by just fine crawling under your own again.

Also, no. Creation magic cannot be taught. You either have it or you don't. No Ancient ever needed to be taught to do it; they make it very clear that every Ancient is born with the ability, and that no other beings besides them can do it. Same with the Loporitz. They were created with the ability. Likewise, you can't teach it to sundered beings -- summoning is the most similar you can get, and it's stated several times that it's not even close.

Even IF it were teachable...you know something that humans need to be taught to do? Walking. It takes human beings several years to learn how to walk, and if you lose the ability to do it for whatever reason (for example, through injury), it takes a very long time to learn it again. Feral children that were not taught to walk in their infancy find it pretty much impossible to learn later, and trying to teach them actually does more harm than good. So even if creation magicks were analogous to a learned ability (which, again they aren't), it would be the same as removing a human being's ability to walk on two legs. And there is no way to describe that other than to "injure" or "cripple" them.

[Brinne]

Walking. It takes human beings several years to learn how to walk, and if you lose the ability to do it for whatever reason (for example, through injury), it takes a very long time to learn it again. Feral children that were not taught to walk in their infancy find it pretty much impossible to learn later, and trying to teach them actually does more harm than good. So even if creation magicks were analogous to a learned ability (which, again they aren't), it would be the same as removing a human being's ability to walk on two legs. And there is no way to describe that other than to "injure" or "cripple" them.

Mankind has grown too complacent and full of hubris with that power that has ultimately led to the destruction of countless species and untold tragedy: opposable thumbs. Gentlemen, we know what we must do.

(Sorry, I'm still a bit stuck on "Where in the story does it state that the Ancients who were Sundered suffered the effects of being Sundered?" It may take me some more time to fully recover.)

On a slightly more serious note, this is why hypotheticals and propositions about "why the Ancients had to die" (the only one truly serious philosophical problem in FFXIV, one might say <_<) pointing at Creation Magic has always bothered me. It's innate to them. They are born with it. Babies can do it. It's like breathing to them, in their words. To say "creation magic is the problem" is essentially saying this race of people was just flat out "born wrong," and thus had to be eradicated because they're just biologically unacceptable to be allowed to live. It starts approaching that uncomfortable area quickly for me, again.

[Anvaire]

Personally I still think the Sundering was straight up genocide. It makes zero sense for the different races all to evolve exactly the same on all the shards. For there to not even be a whiff of legend about the ancients unless the sundering actually killed them all and all venat did was put their torn apart souls into creation concepts. Which is also why she calls us "Her Children" and why in the final days2 it was people who were corrupted rather then the ancients creations. Essentially while aetheric density does make it harder, the reason people were corrupted so easily was simply due to the fact that they are the descendents of beings given form with creation magic. As to why the races are so different. Venat just used the existing concepts. I know YP has pretty much ruled this out. But its what i think makes the most sense.

I also think Venats "fly my childrenand never look back" in the moon ship plan was doomed to fail from the start. The moment that ship left the fading protection of Zodiarks influence, they would all have started turning, trapped like rats with no escape.

I still think Zodiark was done dirty i never wanted him to become the big bad we had to fight. But i do think it would have been a nice twist to actually release and speak to the god and learn it was as emet had always said, a saviour. (It kinda still is this but its so poorly done that its often lost due to the other stuff happening)

[anhaato]

I also think Venats "fly my childrenand never look back" in the moon ship plan was doomed to fail from the start. The moment that ship left the fading protection of Zodiarks influence, they would all have started turning, trapped like rats with no escape.

This is actually a hilarious point that I never considered. But by god you're right, the moon would just turn into a floating mental hospital. I thought that was a ridiculous story detail to begin with but this just makes it even more laughably odd for them to write in.

[Misplaced_Marbles]

I still think Zodiark was done dirty i never wanted him to become the big bad we had to fight. But i do think it would have been a nice twist to actually release and speak to the god and learn it was as emet had always said, a saviour. (It kinda still is this but its so poorly done that its often lost due to the other stuff happening)

I think it's pretty good for that "subverting expectations" thing at least. You got a being with a demonic, monstrous appearance, and he's a hero who saved the world and everyone on it. You also got the angelic being with an appearance of purity and beauty, and she's a narcissistic megalomaniac who destroyed the world and killed everyone on it.

[CrownySuccubus]

Personally I still think the Sundering was straight up genocide. It makes zero sense for the different races all to evolve exactly the same on all the shards.

The existence of Ardbert (and his party), Grenoldt and Mowen on the first is meant to imply that everyone and everything on each shard split identically across all the shards. This is, of course, somewhat muddled by the fact that our WOL can be anything we want, but the Warriors were all identical reflections of the Derplander's squad, Grenoldt is just Gerolt with hair, and Mowen is just straight up Rowena with one letter missing and one changed. Of course, this bears the question of free will and why and how there's been no variation on interbreeding and intermixing over the past 12,000 years. Did every person marry/have children with the exact reflections of their spouses on other worlds? Have there been no other stories like Lamitt falling in love with Ardbert? Have there been no other mixed children like Hilda? Or do genes eventually "settle" on one species, like with G'raha?

I also think Venats "fly my childrenand never look back" in the moon ship plan was doomed to fail from the start. The moment that ship left the fading protection of Zodiarks influence, they would all have started turning, trapped like rats with no escape.

Playing devil's advocate here, but I think the implication was that the Song of Oblivion spreads from star to star. We're never told how much time passed between Meteion's escape from Elpis, but it was at least months or years. It's also likely that the Loporritz had scouted stars that were unlikely to have been affected by the Song yet, although they make it clear several times that they actually have no idea what's on them or what they're like.

The goal of the Moon plan was simply to outrun the Song for as long as possible. In the face of death, sometimes all you can do is struggle to live just one more day and hope that maybe one day, someone will find a way out of this.