What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[linayar]

"Well, the killer says their victim lives on through their children! They really believe that! So that makes it better!"

Yep, the victims of the killer lived through their children, whom they conceived after being killed... uh...

Nah. As far as common "apologism" techniques, along with things like the abstraction and usage of symbols like the montage, coding the action of violence behind finicky language is also typical. It's not killing, it's cleaning--I mean, uh, "retiring"--I mean, uh, "Sundering".

Great, than let's call it what it is instead of "coding" behind the language. Killing is ending one's physical existence. They're not dead? They're still alive and able to reproduce? Then they weren't killed.

People can, and often do, paint things they saw in fragments of dreams they don't understand. Fragments of memories persist through soul aether, as Amon demonstrated. This does not change that their memory was intentionally wiped by Venat and that her strategy to "remove temptation" was to annihilate the Ancient civilization and all memory of it from history.

Yes, they can, but Hydaelyn not wanting the sundered to keep the knowledge of the pre-sundered world is not saying the sundering caused a loss of memory. You're taking a general statement and attributig a specific cause and mechanism.

What do you mean the sundering was primarily to stop Zodiark? She needed Zodiark for her plan. It seems they rewrote it to be instead of Zodiark to be because she thought only the sundered could manipulate dynamis.

To stop Zodiark from being used for more sacrifices to return the society to as it was.

Also,so mankind can learn to live through suffering? The ancients did that. They didn’t give in to the final days, they handed together and put a stop to it and restored the planet. Compare that to 90% of the sundered who give in and succumb to the final days and turn into blasphemies. Getting rid of peoples memories of an entire race, ripping them apart, and keeping it all a secret is the equivalent of genocide. This shouldn’t even really be up for debate. If it is, then i guess the rejoinings aren’t genocide either, since the sundered are all just fractured versions of complete people, rejoining them would just make them whole and themselves again.

They didn't give in because they had creation magic. Everything can be solved with creation magic. Tragedies can be undone. That's not living through suffering.

Also, even you comparing it to the sundered shows that the Ancients merely escape the worst of the suffering because they were not affected by dynamis, only their creation magic.

[CrownySuccubus]

Not really, part of that is due to Meteion's revelation of how the Ancients' paradise is not shared universally (or at least) might be temporary. Again, there is no reason to think she killed anybody. So shortening life spans is not that great a price to pay if it meant mankind can learn to live through the suffering.

Also, it is not like she intentionally intended for their life spans to be shorter. So it is not a motivating factor. The sundering was primarily to stop Zodiark.

No, Venat was well aware that the effects of the Sundering would cause mankind to suffer more, die horrible deaths they otherwise would have, and would also cut their lives to a fraction of what they were. That was the entire PURPOSE of the Sundering, and she had ample knowledge of what it would cause thanks to receiving a heads-up about the future.

The sundering also had nothing to do with Zodiark. It was Meteion that the Sundering was ultimately supposed to defeat by teaching mankind to "live through suffering". But honestly, that's taking the logic of the story at face value, and I've already gone through pages and pages of explanations about why it doesn't work even after the story tried to bend over backwards to make it work.

Also, no. This notion you have of "well if I didn't end your life today, then I didn't kill you" is nonsense.

Again, if I stab you, and this injury directly leads to your death even in an indirect way (you wander into the street looking for help and get hit by a bus), I will STILL get arrested and convicted of murder. "Killing", neither legally nor ethically, is limited to directly ending someone's life with one act.

[Brinne]

Great, than let's call it what it is instead of "coding" behind the language. Killing is ending one's physical existence. They're not dead? They're still alive and able to reproduce? Then they weren't killed.

Hey, good to know if somebody deliberately hits me with a car to render my body and mind nonfunctioning, naturally simultaneously destroying my memories, and giving me a final life expectancy of about six months out, that so long as my heart beats and my womb works, they didn't kill me! Pack it in, folks.

[linayar]

No, Venat was well aware that the effects of the Sundering would cause mankind to suffer more, die horrible deaths they otherwise would have, and would also cut their lives to a fraction of what they were. That was the entire PURPOSE of the Sundering, and she had ample knowledge of what it would cause thanks to receiving a heads-up about the future.

She knows what will be the result in terms of the bad things that can happen, but the result was not why she sundered mankind. That's why she pled with the Ancients. If they didn't choose to go with their plan of sacrificing the new life to return their old lives, I don't think she would commit the sundering.

The sundering also had nothing to do with Zodiark. It was Meteion that the Sundering was ultimately supposed to defeat by teaching mankind to "live through suffering". But honestly, that's taking the logic of the story at face value, and I've already gone through pages and pages of explanations about why it doesn't work even after the story tried to bend over backwards to make it work.

Of course the sundering had to do with Zodiark. The sundering happened because she couldn't kill Zodiark, so she had to weaken him somehow, and yes, it also had to do with Meteion as an action does not have to have only one purpose.

Also, no. This notion you have of "well if I didn't end your life today, then I didn't kill you" is nonsense.

Again, if I stab you, and this injury directly leads to your death even in an indirect way (you wander into the street looking for help and get hit by a bus), I will STILL get arrested and convicted of murder. "Killing", neither legally nor ethically, is limited to directly ending someone's life with one act.

Your examples still do not apply because they are about specific injuries. The sundering is not about specific injury as the whole world was sundered. If what you say is true, then the planet itself is injured and dying.

Also, another factor contributing to the shortened life spans is the loss of creation magic, meaning mankind had to work harder to exist and not rely simply on creation magic. Quality of life changes alone can change life spans. That is not a direct comparison to actually stabbing an individual because the indivual was not injured. All the resulting problems happened because life is harder for them, so conflicts can arise more easily.

Hey, good to know if somebody deliberately hits me with a car to render my body and mind nonfunctioning, naturally simultaneously destroying my memories, and giving me a final life expectancy of about six months out, that so long as my heart beats and my womb works, they didn't kill me! Pack it in, folks.

I still don't see where any of that was said in the story.

[KizuyaKatogami]

She knows what will be the result in terms of the bad things that can happen, but the result was not why she sundered mankind. That's why she pled with the Ancients. If they didn't choose to go with their plan of sacrificing the new life to return their old lives, I don't think she would commit the sundering.

The sundering also had nothing to do with Zodiark. It was Meteion that the Sundering was ultimately supposed to defeat by teaching mankind to "live through suffering". But honestly, that's taking the logic of the story at face value, and I've already gone through pages and pages of explanations about why it doesn't work even after the story tried to bend over backwards to make it work.

Of course the sundering had to do with Zodiark. The sundering happened because she couldn't kill Zodiark, so she had to weaken him somehow, and yes, it also had to do with Meteion as an action does not have to have only one purpose.

Your examples still do not apply because they are about specific injuries. The sundering is not about specific injury as the whole world was sundered. If what you say is true, then the planet itself is injured and dying.

Also, another factor contributing to the shortened life spans is the loss of creation magic, meaning mankind had to work harder to exist and not rely simply on creation magic. Quality of life changes alone can change life spans. That is not a direct comparison to actually stabbing an individual because the indivual was not injured. All the resulting problems happened because life is harder for them, so conflicts can arise more easily.

I still don't see where any of that was said in the story.[/QUOTE]

She even says in ShB, it’s not the sacrifices so much that is the problem for her. It’s the fact that she thinks Zodiark isn’t a permanent solution. She says as much in her Anamnesis dialogue. Also….Venat gave her rabbits creation magic lmao. Another example of her hypocrisy. Either way, it is living through suffering. We see even before the final days people suffered, they dealt with grief. Venat actually made things worse in the end. The sundered’s souls were completely erased during the final days. The ancients thankfully didn’t have this happen to them. But that’s another side effect of her sundering. Can we then call that genocide?

[Brinne]

I still don't see where any of that was said in the story.

There comes a point to where when I read point blank black and white text provided in the story, and a different person says the text does not say what it says, I'm left at a loss for how to respond. If we can't agree on the basic premise of what the Sundering did - their bodies did not exist as they once were, they "existed" as maimed 1/14 pieces, same with their souls - the Ancients in their original identities, bodies, and souls do not exist anymore - their memories were stated to be wiped, and of course their lifespans were smashed into a tiny tiny fragment of what they once were - it feels like there's no common ground for discussion, unfortunately.

I mean, yes. You're on a similar page as the story, which did threw everything it could at the way it portrayed the situation to soften Venat's actions, which were explicitly intended to - and did - annihilate an entire race of people from the face of the planet. I am happy for you that you are not struggling with the moral dissonance, that the familiar coding and abstraction techniques to obscure the violence and identity violation Venat inflicted worked for you, and you can fully enjoy the story. Hey, that's great.

[AziraSyuren]

It was admittedly really confusing because she said both "it was the only way to defeat almighty Zodiark" and "yes, it is as you said" to Y'shtola questioning if giving us the potential to manipulate of dynamis was the purpose of the Sundering in the same line. Was that her purpose all along? Or was that just her trying to make the best out of the bad situation? It's not nearly as clear as anyone in this thread would tell you. I'd be really interested in learning how that line was in the original Japanese and how it was translated in other languages.

[CrownySuccubus]

She knows what will be the result in terms of the bad things that can happen, but the result was not why she sundered mankind. That's why she pled with the Ancients. If they didn't choose to go with their plan of sacrificing the new life to return their old lives, I don't think she would commit the sundering.

No, the result is exactly why she sundered it. We are specifically told by Venat herself that the entire purpose behind the Sundering was to induce mankind to death and suffering so that they could learn to overcome it rather than deny its existence. Sacrificing the lives to return to their old lives was an example of the Ancients denying the existence of suffering.

Your examples still do not apply because they are about specific injuries. The sundering is not about specific injury as the whole world was sundered.

You're really trying to stretch the definition of "killing" if you think "specific injuries" is a requirement. But, regardless....

If what you say is true, then the planet itself is injured and dying.

Yes. You are literally correct.

Of course the sundering had to do with Zodiark. The sundering happened because she couldn't kill Zodiark, so she had to weaken him somehow, and yes, it also had to do with Meteion as an action does not have to have only one purpose.

Weakening Zodiark was a methodology to forestall the Final Days, but Venat is very clear when she sunders the world that the primary purpose was to teach mankind suffering.

Also, another factor contributing to the shortened life spans is the loss of creation magic, meaning mankind had to work harder to exist and not rely simply on creation magic. Quality of life changes alone can change life spans. That is not a direct comparison to actually stabbing an individual because the indivual was not injured. All the resulting problems happened because life is harder for them, so conflicts can arise more easily.

Dude, are you serious?

If I permanently break one of your arms, and you die because you, say, later fall from a high ledge that you ordinarily would have been able to catch and pull yourself up from if you still had both working arms, then I killed you.

I don't know what you think an "injury" is, but reducing the health, the physicality, and the ability of person to defend themselves from harm is basically what an injury is.

[linayar]

She even says in ShB, it’s not the sacrifices so much that is the problem for her. It’s the fact that she thinks Zodiark isn’t a permanent solution. She says as much in her Anamnesis dialogue.

Yes, though I'm not sure what that has to do with my post.

Also….Venat gave her rabbits creation magic lmao. Another example of her hypocrisy. Either way, it is living through suffering. We see even before the final days people suffered, they dealt with grief. Venat actually made things worse in the end. The sundered’s souls were completely erased during the final days. The ancients thankfully didn’t have this happen to them. But that’s another side effect of her sundering. Can we then call that genocide?

Sure, genocide on the part of Endsinger.

their bodies did not exist as they once were, they "existed" as maimed 1/14 pieces, same with their souls - the Ancients in their original identities, bodies, and souls do not exist anymore - their memories were stated to be wiped, and of course their lifespans were smashed into a tiny tiny fragment of what they once were

As far as I know, this is describing the current beings, meaning over time through the generations as they live in a post-sundering reality. I am asking where it was said that this happened to the actual Ancients who were sundered.

[Brinne]

I am asking where it was said that this happened to the actual Ancients who were sundered.

What. What? I... what?