What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[linayar]

Emet-Selch mentions that memories of the sundered were fragmented and unable to recall specifics of anything.

It's not really made clear exactly how badly mankind regressed in-game, but the lorebook mentions that creation of stone tools and the discovery of fire were among the defining attributes of the "age of gods" which suggests they were in an extremely primitive state.

I have a hunch that the Twelve were part of a post-Sundering contingency plan from Hydaelyn to ensure mankind could actually get back on their feet and recover instead of simply going extinct in the face of their newfound shortcomings.

I think that has to do with the loss of creation magic, which of course would be a big deal.

In fact, creation magic is such a big difference that it became a crutch for their society and why they wanted to return to that prior state when their magic was not being turned against them.

Okay….then you should agree what Venat did was Genocide. The ancient lives were no more, she even says herself she is the last of her kind. She ripped them apart, and then removed as much of their history as she could and kept it all secret. Even if we don’t count the ancient lives themselves, she introduced much shorter lifespans and sickness to living beings, all those deaths are on her hands, which is indeed genocide. Not to mention her backup plan in case we failed was also allowing the shards to all be killed.

I agree that the resulting situation is worse, but I don't agree with genocide. Venat calling herself the last of her kind refers to being unsundered, but that doesn't change the fact that she still sees the sundered as continuation of mankind.

It does not, but this one sure did!

Well, that's the point of contention.

No. He confirms it in the cave scene where he reveals Hydaelyn and Zodiark are primals. "And the worst part? No one could remember it." Elidibus also talks later, on the moon, on how all knowledge and memory of the Ancients being wiped from history without a trace was Hydaelyn's intent.

Actually, that cave showed that they remembered and recorded it. Being wiped from history means no record was kept, not that the people who experienced it first hand had their memories wiped.

[Brinne]

Venat calling herself the last of her kind refers to being unsundered, but that doesn't change the fact that she still sees the sundered as continuation of mankind.

What Venat thinks doesn't matter. She's the one who inflicted the violence upon others, and believed it was for the greater good. Emet-Selch obviously does not see it that way. The Ancient souls held on the moon, from all evidence, do not see it that way. "Well, the killer says their victim lives on through their children! They really believe that! So that makes it better!"

Well, that's the point of contention.

Nah. As far as common "apologism" techniques, along with things like the abstraction and usage of symbols like the montage, coding the action of violence behind finicky, cowardly language is also typical. It's not killing, it's cleaning--I mean, uh, "retiring"--I mean, uh, "Sundering".

Actually, that cave showed that they remembered and recorded it. Being wiped from history means no record was kept, not that the people who experienced it first hand had their memories wiped.

And the worst part? No one could remember it. Not really. Just fragments and fleeting memories of an achingly familiar world…

The origins of the world remain hidden and its inhabitants ignorant of their broken existence, just as You and Your creators desired.

People can, and often do, paint things they saw in fragments of dreams they don't understand. Fragments of memories persist through soul aether, as Amon demonstrated. This does not change that their memory was intentionally wiped by Venat and that her strategy to "remove temptation" was to annihilate the Ancient civilization and all memory of it from history.

[linayar]

"Well, the killer says their victim lives on through their children! They really believe that! So that makes it better!"

Yep, the victims of the killer lived through their children, whom they conceived after being killed... uh...

Nah. As far as common "apologism" techniques, along with things like the abstraction and usage of symbols like the montage, coding the action of violence behind finicky language is also typical. It's not killing, it's cleaning--I mean, uh, "retiring"--I mean, uh, "Sundering".

Great, than let's call it what it is instead of "coding" behind the language. Killing is ending one's physical existence. They're not dead? They're still alive and able to reproduce? Then they weren't killed.

People can, and often do, paint things they saw in fragments of dreams they don't understand. Fragments of memories persist through soul aether, as Amon demonstrated. This does not change that their memory was intentionally wiped by Venat and that her strategy to "remove temptation" was to annihilate the Ancient civilization and all memory of it from history.

Yes, they can, but Hydaelyn not wanting the sundered to keep the knowledge of the pre-sundered world is not saying the sundering caused a loss of memory. You're taking a general statement and attributig a specific cause and mechanism.

What do you mean the sundering was primarily to stop Zodiark? She needed Zodiark for her plan. It seems they rewrote it to be instead of Zodiark to be because she thought only the sundered could manipulate dynamis.

To stop Zodiark from being used for more sacrifices to return the society to as it was.

Also,so mankind can learn to live through suffering? The ancients did that. They didn’t give in to the final days, they handed together and put a stop to it and restored the planet. Compare that to 90% of the sundered who give in and succumb to the final days and turn into blasphemies. Getting rid of peoples memories of an entire race, ripping them apart, and keeping it all a secret is the equivalent of genocide. This shouldn’t even really be up for debate. If it is, then i guess the rejoinings aren’t genocide either, since the sundered are all just fractured versions of complete people, rejoining them would just make them whole and themselves again.

They didn't give in because they had creation magic. Everything can be solved with creation magic. Tragedies can be undone. That's not living through suffering.

Also, even you comparing it to the sundered shows that the Ancients merely escape the worst of the suffering because they were not affected by dynamis, only their creation magic.

[Brinne]

Great, than let's call it what it is instead of "coding" behind the language. Killing is ending one's physical existence. They're not dead? They're still alive and able to reproduce? Then they weren't killed.

Hey, good to know if somebody deliberately hits me with a car to render my body and mind nonfunctioning, naturally simultaneously destroying my memories, and giving me a final life expectancy of about six months out, that so long as my heart beats and my womb works, they didn't kill me! Pack it in, folks.