What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[KageTokage]

Where did the story say any of that happened to the actual people that experienced the sundering?

Well, except for reducing the potential life span, but no, I don't consider that killing if the shortened life span doesn't mean an immediate end, especially for a group that have different ideas about death.

Emet-Selch mentions that memories of the sundered were fragmented and unable to recall specifics of anything.

It's not really made clear exactly how badly mankind regressed in-game, but the lorebook mentions that creation of stone tools and the discovery of fire were among the defining attributes of the "age of gods" which suggests they were in an extremely primitive state.

I have a hunch that the Twelve were part of a post-Sundering contingency plan from Hydaelyn to ensure mankind could actually get back on their feet and recover instead of simply going extinct in the face of their newfound shortcomings.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Their souls might be, but not their life, unless you think that being inside Zodiark is living, in which case the Ancients are condemning their own people to what seem like a hellish existence only to then wanting to replace them with others who are not their friends and families.

Okay….then you should agree what Venat did was Genocide. The ancient lives were no more, she even says herself she is the last of her kind. She ripped them apart, and then removed as much of their history as she could and kept it all secret. Even if we don’t count the ancient lives themselves, she introduced much shorter lifespans and sickness to living beings, all those deaths are on her hands, which is indeed genocide. Not to mention her backup plan in case we failed was also allowing the shards to all be killed.

[Brinne]

I am not arguing that it is not a tragedy, but a tragedy does not have to involve genocide.

It does not, but this one sure did!

I don't remember Emet-Selch confirming actual memory wipes for the Ancients. Does that have anything to do with Elidibus's memory as well?

No. He confirms it in the cave scene where he reveals Hydaelyn and Zodiark are primals. "And the worst part? No one could remember it." Elidibus also talks later, on the moon, on how all knowledge and memory of the Ancients being wiped from history without a trace was Hydaelyn's intent.

[linayar]

Emet-Selch mentions that memories of the sundered were fragmented and unable to recall specifics of anything.

It's not really made clear exactly how badly mankind regressed in-game, but the lorebook mentions that creation of stone tools and the discovery of fire were among the defining attributes of the "age of gods" which suggests they were in an extremely primitive state.

I have a hunch that the Twelve were part of a post-Sundering contingency plan from Hydaelyn to ensure mankind could actually get back on their feet and recover instead of simply going extinct in the face of their newfound shortcomings.

I think that has to do with the loss of creation magic, which of course would be a big deal.

In fact, creation magic is such a big difference that it became a crutch for their society and why they wanted to return to that prior state when their magic was not being turned against them.

Okay….then you should agree what Venat did was Genocide. The ancient lives were no more, she even says herself she is the last of her kind. She ripped them apart, and then removed as much of their history as she could and kept it all secret. Even if we don’t count the ancient lives themselves, she introduced much shorter lifespans and sickness to living beings, all those deaths are on her hands, which is indeed genocide. Not to mention her backup plan in case we failed was also allowing the shards to all be killed.

I agree that the resulting situation is worse, but I don't agree with genocide. Venat calling herself the last of her kind refers to being unsundered, but that doesn't change the fact that she still sees the sundered as continuation of mankind.

It does not, but this one sure did!

Well, that's the point of contention.

No. He confirms it in the cave scene where he reveals Hydaelyn and Zodiark are primals. "And the worst part? No one could remember it." Elidibus also talks later, on the moon, on how all knowledge and memory of the Ancients being wiped from history without a trace was Hydaelyn's intent.

Actually, that cave showed that they remembered and recorded it. Being wiped from history means no record was kept, not that the people who experienced it first hand had their memories wiped.

[AziraSyuren]

Emet-Selch mentions that memories of the sundered were fragmented and unable to recall specifics of anything.

It's not really made clear exactly how badly mankind regressed in-game, but the lorebook mentions that creation of stone tools and the discovery of fire were among the defining attributes of the "age of gods" which suggests they were in an extremely primitive state.

I have a hunch that the Twelve were part of a post-Sundering contingency plan from Hydaelyn to ensure mankind could actually get back on their feet and recover instead of simply going extinct in the face of their newfound shortcomings.

Most "copies" of Amaurot were actually unharmed if the First is anything to go by, so I think the implication is that the destruction and worldwide trauma caused by the Sundering rendered Amaurot either wholly inaccessible or useless, so to speak. With that in mind, it seemed like what little was left of the Ancients themselves only had a world that was mostly just wilderness to work with, and even if they retained their knowledge and memory, their lack of Creation magic would've forced a hard reset anyways if most of Ancient society was built upon it.

Not trying to make a point or anything, just saying what I think happened.

[CrownySuccubus]

They might have changed, but Venat didn't. That's why Yoshida said Venat was just an Ancient. Indeed, she acted like an Ancient would.

Except Venat was an Ancient who didn't agree with her fellow Ancients. Venat did not choose to die after she left her office, and stated that she probably never would choose to. She specifically sundered her fellow Ancients because she disagreed with their fundamental values.

She is the one Ancient (besides Hermes) for whom a callous attitude toward death would be hypocrisy.

[Erendis]

She preaches constantly the entire game about having hope, never giving up, making the impossible possible yet doesn’t apply any of these things to her own people, and effectively gives up on them and murders them all.

And for what? Because WoL sounded cool when speaking about her adventures...

I'm already dreading the idea of Alphinaud and Alisae seeding the idea that Garlemald should do away with the idea of an Emperor so it can instead become a democratic republic again.

Why? Garlemald became an empire solely because of Solus. It was a republic 80 years ago, or so.

Garlemald has been reduced to Rubble, its residence huddling in a subways (and it was hinted at that a large amount of citizens and soldiers were un tempered and are undergoing treatment after the tower of babel so they need a more viable living location soon) and it has no current leader or government that people can turn to.

You think this would be the prime concern for the WoL due to how they like helping those in need

What do you want WoL to do? Build some houses? That was always side content.

[linayar]

She is the one Ancient (besides Hermes) for whom a callous attitude toward death would be hypocrisy.

Not really, part of that is due to Meteion's revelation of how the Ancients' paradise is not shared universally (or at least) might be temporary. Again, there is no reason to think she killed anybody. So shortening life spans is not that great a price to pay if it meant mankind can learn to live through the suffering.

Also, it is not like she intentionally intended for their life spans to be shorter. So it is not a motivating factor. The sundering was primarily to stop Zodiark.

[Brinne]

Venat calling herself the last of her kind refers to being unsundered, but that doesn't change the fact that she still sees the sundered as continuation of mankind.

What Venat thinks doesn't matter. She's the one who inflicted the violence upon others, and believed it was for the greater good. Emet-Selch obviously does not see it that way. The Ancient souls held on the moon, from all evidence, do not see it that way. "Well, the killer says their victim lives on through their children! They really believe that! So that makes it better!"

Well, that's the point of contention.

Nah. As far as common "apologism" techniques, along with things like the abstraction and usage of symbols like the montage, coding the action of violence behind finicky, cowardly language is also typical. It's not killing, it's cleaning--I mean, uh, "retiring"--I mean, uh, "Sundering".

Actually, that cave showed that they remembered and recorded it. Being wiped from history means no record was kept, not that the people who experienced it first hand had their memories wiped.

And the worst part? No one could remember it. Not really. Just fragments and fleeting memories of an achingly familiar world…

The origins of the world remain hidden and its inhabitants ignorant of their broken existence, just as You and Your creators desired.

People can, and often do, paint things they saw in fragments of dreams they don't understand. Fragments of memories persist through soul aether, as Amon demonstrated. This does not change that their memory was intentionally wiped by Venat and that her strategy to "remove temptation" was to annihilate the Ancient civilization and all memory of it from history.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Not really, part of that is due to Meteion's revelation of how the Ancients' paradise is not shared universally (or at least) might be temporary. Again, there is no reason to think she killed anybody. So shortening life spans is not that great a price to pay if it meant mankind can learn to live through the suffering.

Also, it is not like she intentionally intended for their life spans to be shorter. So it is not a motivating factor. The sundering was primarily to stop Zodiark.

What do you mean the sundering was primarily to stop Zodiark? She needed Zodiark for her plan. It seems they rewrote it to be instead of Zodiark to be because she thought only the sundered could manipulate dynamis.

Also,so mankind can learn to live through suffering? The ancients did that. They didn’t give in to the final days, they handed together and put a stop to it and restored the planet. Compare that to 90% of the sundered who give in and succumb to the final days and turn into blasphemies. Getting rid of peoples memories of an entire race, ripping them apart, and keeping it all a secret is the equivalent of genocide. This shouldn’t even really be up for debate. If it is, then i guess the rejoinings aren’t genocide either, since the sundered are all just fractured versions of complete people, rejoining them would just make them whole and themselves again.