What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Lauront]

All in a day's work for a supreme deity. :`)

But you're right, that's definitely a case of taking a big hard hit to the head with the idiot stick.

Primal blessings are an established piece of lore, as well, and the one she bestows functions a lot like them, which makes it all the more bizarre.

[Brinne]

I think, if I'm remembering right, the revelation in 5.2 was that Hydaelyn's auto-message was meant to hit anyone who awakened to the Echo, immediately, to her voice and her Blessing - to the point that the in-universe lorebooks attributed the Echo itself as "a gift from Hydaelyn." So, uh, her intent was probably to confuse the issue, honestly, what with how determined she was to completely erase the Ancients from history and keep them erased.

[PawPaw]

I think, if I'm remembering right, the revelation in 5.2 was that Hydaelyn's auto-message was meant to hit anyone who awakened to the Echo, immediately, to her voice and her Blessing - to the point that the in-universe lorebooks attributed the Echo itself as "a gift from Hydaelyn." So, uh, her intent was probably to confuse the issue, honestly, what with how determined she was to completely erase the Ancients from history and keep them erased.

I remember that part of 5.2, but it also says in the wiki that many people mistakenly associate the Echo as being bestowed by her when, in "fact", all her shouting has done is awakened the fragment of the ancient within you which in turn unlocks the latent Echo, their power. I put fact in quotes because I honestly have no idea anymore.

[Lauront]

I remember that part of 5.2, but it also says in the wiki that many people mistakenly associate the Echo as being bestowed by her when, in "fact", all her shouting has done is awakened the fragment of the ancient within you which in turn unlocks the latent Echo, their power. I put fact in quotes because I honestly have no idea anymore.

True but when you take that into consideration, given that the MC is there when Urianger elaborated on its true nature, it makes the character's answer in that scene you linked even more baffling. Unless they just switched their braincells off whenever the echo was discussed?

[PawPaw]

True but when you take that into consideration, given that the MC is there when Urianger elaborated on its true nature, it makes the character's answer in that scene you linked even more baffling. Unless they just switched their braincells off whenever the echo was discussed?

[Brinne]

Mm, this is my understanding of it:

- The Echo is a remnant of Ancient powers, and awakens when a strong memory is triggered of their lives as an Ancient/the Final Days in particular. This is why Elidibus used the meteor showers in 5.2 and 5.3 to prompt a mass-awakening of the Echo to create Warriors of Light.

- Only people with the awakened Echo can hear Hydaelyn's voice.

- Hydaelyn has an automated message constantly on loop, so her voice is the first thing anyone who awakens to the Echo hears. She also, perhaps, instant-slaps the Blessing of Light on them.

- In-universe scholars, because the two are conflated so closely, attribute the Echo as originating from Hydaelyn as well - missing the fact that what actually triggers it are "meteor showers," with Hydaelyn instead being a force jumping in on an opportunity created by an awakening she doesn't actually have anything to do with.

- If the Echo is Hydaelyn's gift, no need to look further in and potentially discover it's actually because we're fragmented pieces of an ancient civilization that Hydaelyn destroyed, and the automated message + automated Blessing ensures that anyone who awakens the Echo is at least inclined from the start toward the path of being a warrior of light. Two birds with one stone! Venat is very efficient.

[Rulakir]

I still have a strong feeling that EW came out the way it did in part because the devs were determined to make it as positive and encouraging for the player as possible, given their acknowledgment that so many these days are having a difficult time--but then when you start to think about it, the ultimate message of "things may be hard, and you're a cool and strong person for living in these conditions - but also, did you consider that if your life was better, it'd actually suck?" seems... incredibly tone-deaf.

Agreed. I think the combination of Yoshi-P wanting to rush the end of the story combined with covid gave us the "lackluster" EW. I found quite a lot of it to be tone-deaf, especially the beloved 'walk' scene where Venat chastises a group of people for not overcoming their trauma and grief in the way she deems fit. I shake my head every time someone calls it badass because it's probably one of the most sanctimonious displays I've ever seen followed by that disgusting 'feel bad for me now' pity stumble through the ages. That whole cutscene was the "flames on the side of my face" moment for me. :P

As far as being in the minority, in the west that's certainly true. It's the reason why I think that there must be more debate happening in Japan for Yoshi-P to feel the need to communicate she's "not a bad guy" because at the time of that LL all the western fan sites were still gushing over her and any criticisms were being downvoted/dogpiled into oblivion. Criticisms in the west have since grown substantially regardless of if they're still a minority.

[Brinne]

As far as being in the minority, in the west that's certainly true. It's the reason why I think that there must be more debate happening in Japan for Yoshi-P to feel the need to communicate she's "not a bad guy" because at the time of that LL all the western fan sites were still gushing over her and any criticisms were being downvoted/dogpiled into oblivion. Criticisms in the west have since grown substantially regardless of if they're still a minority.

Nah, Venat is still a very, very popular character in Japan, too. Again, there were two 2ch-based polls of "favorite Endwalker NPC" that were commonly cited before Famitsu's own poll--and Venat scored #3, and then #2, below Emet. Even in Famitsu, Endwalker was voted in as "favorite expansion." There are people who have criticisms and feel very strongly about them, same as here, of course. But it's probably best to not fall into the trap of "I bet those other people whose feedback I don't have direct access to hate it, though." Not that I don't understand, and not that Yoshi's attitude in the Q&A regarding her wasn't pretty curious.

[Lauront]

Mm, this is my understanding of it:

- The Echo is a remnant of Ancient powers, and awakens when a strong memory is triggered of their lives as an Ancient/the Final Days in particular. This is why Elidibus used the meteor showers in 5.2 and 5.3 to prompt a mass-awakening of the Echo to create Warriors of Light.

- Only people with the awakened Echo can hear Hydaelyn's voice.

- Hydaelyn has an automated message constantly on loop, so her voice is the first thing anyone who awakens to the Echo hears. She also, perhaps, instant-slaps the Blessing of Light on them.

- In-universe scholars, because the two are conflated so closely, attribute the Echo as originating from Hydaelyn as well - missing the fact that what actually triggers it are "meteor showers," with Hydaelyn instead being a force jumping in on an opportunity created by an awakening she doesn't actually have anything to do with.

- If the Echo is Hydaelyn's gift, no need to look further in and potentially discover it's actually because we're fragmented pieces of an ancient civilization that Hydaelyn destroyed, and the automated message + automated Blessing ensures that anyone who awakens the Echo is at least inclined from the start toward the path of being a warrior of light. Two birds with one stone! Venat is very efficient.

I think the error could be forgiven for your regular scholar, who wasn't present through all of what the WoL went through, but in their case specifically, it's a bit more difficult to justify the confusion. The understanding that the Echo is what shielded from primal influence is something Zenos discusses when relating the powers of the Echo, and the decision to deploy the likes of Arenvald and Fordola to deal with primals is ultimately driven by the protection the Echo or its mimicry provide, so that much is established. With 5.2, the WoL is privy to the fact that the Echo itself is activated through visual triggers of the Final Days, so putting those facts together, surely the assumption ought to be that the Echo is what is providing that protection, and not the Blessing.

[AziraSyuren]

Nah, Venat is still a very, very popular character in Japan, too. Again, there were two 2ch-based polls of "favorite Endwalker NPC" that were commonly cited before Famitsu's own poll--and Venat scored #3, and then #2, below Emet. Even in Famitsu, Endwalker was voted in as "favorite expansion." There are people who have criticisms and feel very strongly about them, same as here, of course. But it's probably best to not fall into the trap of "I bet those other people whose feedback I don't have direct access to hate it, though." Not that I don't understand, and not that Yoshi's attitude in the Q&A regarding her wasn't pretty curious.

I think the sentiments about Venat are relatively common but a lot of people don't feel as though it's a make or break thing, myself included. It's not impossible to like her a lot and think her actions were genocidal; just look at how much people liked Emet even before EW (although I personally like a lot of characters much more than her).

Even to those people, I imagine the tonal clash is enough to warrant further clarification.