What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Jeeqbit]

• The mighty Zodiark, which has been build up as this mighty(evil) entity over several expansions, turns out to be nothing but filler trash for the first Endwalker trial
• The true cause of the Final Days is a pet-project from an ancient which goes mad after observing countless dead world and possibly causing the death of several world by projecting negative emotions unto them, and is thus dead-set on bringing despair to every world, upon which said ancient goes mad and is now letting her run her course to test humanity if they can withstand/fight despair
• Venat, who hasn't had her memory wiped + still remembers you from being in Elpis, quite apparently doesn't lift a finger to learn about Dynamis herself or to mobilize the other ancients to end Meteion then and there, and instead chooses to turn herself into Hydaelyn, sunder the world and the inhabitants, thereby forcing them to live with and face despair and gambling that their resilience against despair might be enough to face Meteion one day

• The mighty Zodiark was sundered and there is a version of it on the moon of each shard, so it was a lot weaker and wasn't itself. Was it actually designed for fighting in the first place when that wasn't why it was summoned?
• Yes, that is the true cause of the Final Days. You're missing the point, which is that this "perfect" society was not as perfect as they believed it was. When faced with their own doom, they wouldn't know what to do because they have never had to struggle with anything before, so they just summoned a giant familiar to deal with it. When presented with Meteion's report, they would have been divided for the first time in their lives. Emet-Selch later tells us their ways would never had got them this far. By sundering them and making them struggle and contemplate doom regularly, they will know how to cope with division and threats to their existence.
• As I said, if she mobilized the other ancients to end Meteion, they would be divided on what to do for the first time in their lives. Some of them may agree that they should be discarded and they would fight over what to do about the situation. The division would probably be as destructive as the final days itself. She did mobilize a small amount of people that she could trust, but had to be careful not to spread word to Fandaniel because she couldn't trust him with the information. How would she convince Emet-Selch when he was not even convinced the first time?
• She already learned what Dynamis was. Learning more about it wasn't necessary. Traveling to Meteion was and space travel is what she spent years researching with her researchers (one of which becomes The Watcher).

[aveyond-dreams]

• The mighty Zodiark was sundered and there is a version of it on the moon of each shard, so it was a lot weaker and wasn't itself. Was it actually designed for fighting in the first place when that wasn't why it was summoned?
• Yes, that is the true cause of the Final Days. You're missing the point, which is that this "perfect" society was not as perfect as they believed it was. When faced with their own doom, they wouldn't know what to do because they have never had to struggle with anything before, so they just summoned a giant familiar to deal with it. When presented with Meteion's report, they would have been divided for the first time in their lives. Emet-Selch later tells us their ways would never had got them this far. By sundering them and making them struggle and contemplate doom regularly, they will know how to cope with division and threats to their existence.
• As I said, if she mobilized the other ancients to end Meteion, they would be divided on what to do for the first time in their lives. Some of them may agree that they should be discarded and they would fight over what to do about the situation. The division would probably be as destructive as the final days itself. She did mobilize a small amount of people that she could trust, but had to be careful not to spread word to Fandaniel because she couldn't trust him with the information. How would she convince Emet-Selch when he was not even convinced the first time?

Considering the fact that Zodiark and Hydaelyn are described has having a nearly-apocalyptic battle with each other I'd say yes he was likely designed with the ability to fight in order to, I dunno, defend his summoners? You know, that's kind of why we summon things?

The final days being caused by "the amalgamation of despair" was a poor choice as it was likely made with the intention to drive home a moral lesson than actually giving us something interesting to latch onto. Hermes/Meteion were uninteresting villains. By that extent, Dynamis was also a ludicrous plot element thrown in at the last second in a way that only makes sense when you're surrounded by Endwalker-launch levels of hype or twitch chat. Did they take inspiration from Sailor Moon or something for this?

Venat's decisions do not make sense. The only way I can rationalize them while still liking her character is through personal headcanons. I disagree with your proposed theory as Venat could likely influence Hades by way of Azem seeing as how she likely still speaks to them, and they speak to Hades regularly. I do not believe the Ancients would agree they would be worthy of destruction. The most probable outcome of that scenario would be Hermes facing some kind of punishment and the others creating a more well-thought out plan to defeat Meteion. Again, Dynamis should never have existed.

[Lauront]

As someone who generally enjoys darker and more morally grey stories, it isn't so much the lack of a happy ending for the Ancients that bothered me so much as the sheer lack of nuance and blame directed at the character responsible for their downfall and destruction. In a game that ordinarily handles heavy topics with a bit more tact, it simply feels incredibly out of place for Venat to be presented in the way that Endwalker portrayed.

[...]

So I have to admit, I was very baffled by the stark contrast between how the Garleans were handled compared to the Ancients. Personally if it wasn't for the Garlean conclusion being better than the Ancient's finale then I would have very likely quit. The only reason I'm giving 6.1 a fair chance is because there is a good story at times mixed in with the rest of Endwalker.

Similarly here.

Where my issue arose was that there never was any justice for them. Never, after being clearly affected by the Ancients and their struggle, did the WoL ever question the person who singlehandedly ended them (Got our one dialogue option and a fat load of good that did). I genuinely think Meteion was a scapegoat to avoid this. No matter how noble Venat's intentions were, no matter how deep her guilt, I simply refuse to believe our character would nod and smile at her, a person who has done so much bad and has never answered for any of it. If the WoL opposes Emet-selch despite understanding his reasoning, why is this treatment not given to the even more dubious person? The initial aggressor? I understand not outright attacking her, because she isn't acting against Sundered life, but anything that isn't this mom-mentor nonsense they tried to sell me. I will never understand that...

But going from Shadowbringers, my feelings were basically exactly as you described. I loved the Ancients, I very much wanted to save them, but still saw it as the narratively correct choice, the choice that reflected writing integrity, so to speak, would be to leave the situation as it was, in all of its bittersweet catharsis. What happened to the Ancients was absolutely terrible, absolutely senseless, and basically irreversible, but that small, precious glint of compassion and understanding between Emet-Selch and the WoL managed to slide through the cracks nonetheless. The understanding that it was terrible and senseless and in a perfect world, we could save both, as both deserved to be saved. Those are the small victories people can grasp from the cold, indifferent nature of the universe that resonate with me - even as things are terrible and unjust and unfair, making those small spaces for kindness and understanding.

[...]

That was how I felt from 5.0, in all my admiration of it. Then the dissonance and injustice flowing from Endwalker's approach to Hydaelyn and the Ancients broke my brain and now I am quietly yet shamelessly internally clamoring for a chance to actually save them, whether through further time travel nonsense or however. Handwave it with more dynamis, I don't care! The writing integrity that mattered to me has already been largely thrown out the window by how 6.0 followed it up, so screw it, give me all the self-indulgent garbage now! I know the story, however the tone might change in response to criticism, will never concede Venat not being a good person, so I want my damn junk food consolation prize! This is what I have been reduced to.

In fairness, although I am an Ascian fan to the extent that I'd like to have seen the rejoinings completed to rectify the huge injustice perpetrated on the ancient world, I was alright with the resolution in SHB because I wasn't really expecting them to 1) spring more AUs/time travel or 2) do away with with the current state of the world via the rejoinings, even if a bloodless method of completing them were to be found (not without another 2.0, anyway.) Plus some manner of reconciliation occurred between Emet-Selch and the WoL - Elidibus's predicament was a little more dire in 5.3 but he got a good send off at least. There was also the possibility that they'd lean more into the WoL's past shard, Azem, and any role they had in assisting the 3 unsundered escape the Sundering (until it turns out Venat did that...), and perhaps finally de-couple the WoL from Hydaelyn, but yes, I thought the position SHB settled on was pretty good for the reasons both of you mention.

I agree that what makes it a really bitter pill to swallow is how they portray Venat in-game and how they close off any negative character responses to her, whatever the true position reflected in the game/interviews. But then to go and introduce yet more time travel, but use it as a time loop so as to avoid too much scrutiny around Venat's actions, rather than as an opportunity as an AU to explore the ancient world more and see how its fate if it avoided the sundering, was just adding salt to the wound...

I'm not actively clamouring for an AU but since they seem to go to so much effort, even if just narratively, to "comfort" fans of the protagonists - including the AU Ironworks - yes, I can't say I'd oppose one forming to explore the ancient world more.

[Rulakir]

And then, ironically, they give us an actual portal to the past we can waltz around into whenever... but nothing can ever, ever be changed, okay?

This is the problem. Clarifying my position, the issue is the time travel combined with going from an AU in ShB to a paradox loop in EW. Had I been asked if I was interested in visiting the past with the caveat that I would not be able to change anything I would've said no. As much as I love Emet and Hythlodaeus, I would not have considered it worth it. My only hope/expectation in EW were Echo flashbacks, which I would've preferred because I wanted to see things from an Azem first person POV not as a 'familiar'.

It's the time travel that opened up a whole can of worms. Worse because our actions did matter. Y'all want to talk about injustice? How about the fact that it made the WoL an accomplice to Venat and the sundering as a result of this?

No matter how noble Venat's intentions were, no matter how deep her guilt, I simply refuse to believe our character would nod and smile at her, a person who has done so much bad and has never answered for any of it.

This is a contributing factor into why EW left me feeling unsatisfied.

I'm not actively clamouring for an AU but since they seem to go to so much effort, even if just narratively, to "comfort" fans of the protagonists - including the AU Ironworks - yes, I can't say I'd oppose one forming to explore the ancient world more.

Exactly. When it's the protagonists AUs are fine, when it's the antagonists suddenly time travel can only be in loops.

Adding to my unsatisfied feelings are, once again, the Scions invoke nothing in the way of costs. Thancred even jokes in Ultima Thule that he doesn't have a scar to brag about which, while meant in that context, still applies to the EW journey as a whole. Contrast that to a civilization that was completely eradicated with the added insult that it was 'for the best'.

I've been evaluating my feelings towards FFXIV as a whole because if I remove Ishgard and anything involving the Ascians from the equation there isn't much else I've found of interest save for some parts of the east in SB. Plus, as I was telling Theodric, if I'm not invested in the same characters the writers are am I not doomed to perpetual disappointment? It's bad enough that, like Lurina said (I miss her), EW felt like I wasn't ethically on the same page as the writers. It doesn't inspire confidence going into future storylines.

The Elpis finale is little more than a stylistic and false depiction of the events that took place in a desperate attempt to deflect attention away from Venat being the one to set all the tragic events in the setting into motion.

I'm convinced that cutscene was constructed to evoke feelings of pity for Venat to manipulate viewers into forgiving her.

[aveyond-dreams]

Exactly. When it's the protagonists AUs are fine, when it's the antagonists suddenly time travel can only be in loops.

Adding to my unsatisfied feelings are, once again, the Scions invoke nothing in the way of costs. Thancred even jokes in Ultima Thule that he doesn't have a scar to brag about which, while meant in that context, still applies to the EW journey as a whole. Contrast that to a civilization that was completely eradicated with the added insult that it was 'for the best'.

I've been evaluating my feelings towards FFXIV as a whole because if I remove Ishgard and anything involving the Ascians from the equation there isn't much else I've found of interest save for some parts of the east in SB. Plus, as I was telling Theodric, if I'm not invested in the same characters the writers are am I not doomed to perpetual disappointment? It's bad enough that, like Lurina said (I miss her), EW felt like I wasn't ethically on the same page as the writers. It doesn't inspire confidence going into future storylines.

At present I still believe that Stranger of Paradise handled not only time travel better but actually had the sacrifices made by the main party mean something significant. In Endwalker we had an admittedly beloved fanservice zone that then proceeded to cause innumerable problems and implications, culminating in an extremely weak final zone that once more, reads like a fanfic of comfort characters than a full-fledged story.

I understand that perhaps due to global events there may have been a low mood at the time of writing that made it difficult to part ways with key characters, however the recent interview leads me to believe that this wasn't the original plan and that talented writers ended up having to write plot points that they didn't want to do initially. How is one of the lead writers fully aware that players will hate a certain character, and then is told to include them in the story anyway? This does not make sense.

As for me, were it not for Ishgard introducing much-needed traditional fantasy elements into this game, there is little chance I would have stuck around past level 30. The starter nations of FFXIV are comparatively less interesting than their FFXI counterparts. Though I initially started in Windurst back then, San d'Oria became my eventual home in that game, and Ishgard fills that space for me in FFXIV. The aesthetics of the Garlemald Empire and the personalities of its characters were also quite interesting, and as we drew nearer to Shadowbringers I began to find the Ascians more interesting.

However, Garlemald is now in ruins, the Ascians have no further role to play in the main story, Ishgard's plot points are resolved, and parts of the community seem convinced that the remaining regions of the world map *must* draw directly from their real world geographic counterparts or else it goes against the representation of that real world region. How am I supposed to stick around for a Meracydia expansion that takes us to fantasy Australia or Africa, when that isn't what the majority of fantasy-lovers want to visit in terms of setting? Doubly so when the story would inevitably revolve around more "liberation!" headed by the Scions.


Simply put, I came for castles, dragons, and interesting villains/empires. I am not here to be preached to about morals and despair via someone else's comfort characters.

[Lauront]

However, Garlemald is now in ruins, the Ascians have no further role to play in the main story, Ishgard's plot points are resolved, and parts of the community seem convinced that the remaining regions of the world map *must* draw directly from their real world geographic counterparts or else it goes against the representation of that real world region. How am I supposed to stick around for a Meracydia expansion that takes us to fantasy Australia or Africa, when that isn't what the majority of fantasy-lovers want to visit in terms of setting? Doubly so when the story would inevitably revolve around more "liberation!" headed by the Scions.


Simply put, I came for castles, dragons, and interesting villains/empires. I am not here to be preached to about morals and despair via someone else's comfort characters.

Hear hear! I'm of the same mind on that.

She didn't need to show anyone else's past to Emet-Selch. The main thing she needed to show them was the scene in the room where everything was explained and what happened next; which she was very much present for and thus would have known exactly where to take them to tap into the aetherical remnants for viewing the past events. She knew that Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus had been wandering around with us down below for at least a day so at that point the many researchers that had seen and spoken with us could have helped with advising Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus on locations they had seen us in together. It's not a plot hole, it's a plot crater.

And they didn't ask to see our memories of Eorzea or the First when we were telling them everything the first time, I doubt they'd need them to be willing to accept the story the second time around.

One of their biggest mistakes of that zone was taking the time to teach us how everyone could use the environment to see past events and then trying to use memory wiping as an effective plot device 30 minutes later.

Indeed, plus in addition to that there were plenty of witnesses to other incidents, such as those surrounding Hermes's behaviour and his outbursts.

[Theodric]

Simply put, I came for castles, dragons, and interesting villains/empires. I am not here to be preached to about morals and despair via someone else's comfort characters.

Likewise. My reaction to the Scions and the majority of the city state leaders can be summed up by this rather excellent quote:



I've played enough JRPG's over the years to know full well what sort of fun and interesting character tropes can be put into play. Which begs the question - why is it only the antagonists and villains who seem to have compelling motives, high stakes and sympathetic backstories? Even comparing the cast of the typical single player Final Fantasy game, the protagonists were allowed to have flaws, make mistakes and endure meaningful losses.

FFXIV seems to be following a lazy and predictable pattern where anything even remotely gritty or interesting is eroded away. Primals are no longer a threat since there's a cure for Tempering. Limsa is no longer engaging in piracy. There's no longer any border disputes or threats of invasion. No inquisitors left in Ishgard.

I just don't know why the game is so scared to be bold, to allow some characters who aren't perfect to remain that way and at the forefront. I'm tired of our companions always agreeing with one another or sucking up to the player's self insert.

We desperately need some variety. A solid rival figure who isn't a complete psychopath.

[Rulakir]

I understand that perhaps due to global events there may have been a low mood at the time of writing that made it difficult to part ways with key characters, however the recent interview leads me to believe that this wasn't the original plan and that talented writers ended up having to write plot points that they didn't want to do initially.

This seems to be a growing sentiment. I can't help but wonder what we would've gotten without covid, but I also suspect there's more to the meddling than that.

How am I supposed to stick around for a Meracydia expansion that takes us to fantasy Australia or Africa, when that isn't what the majority of fantasy-lovers want to visit in terms of setting?

I don't know what 'fantasy Australia' is supposed to look like. :P Africa could be cool, it's certainly been done before (Quest for Glory 3: Wages of War) and we do lack for a proper Egyptian aesthetic.

Simply put, I came for castles, dragons, and interesting villains/empires. I am not here to be preached to about morals and despair via someone else's comfort characters.

Amen. I'm hoping the preachiness of EW is a one and done.

[Lauront]

So much wrong in the above I don't know where to begin...

[KizuyaKatogami]

• The mighty Zodiark was sundered and there is a version of it on the moon of each shard, so it was a lot weaker and wasn't itself. Was it actually designed for fighting in the first place when that wasn't why it was summoned?
• Yes, that is the true cause of the Final Days. You're missing the point, which is that this "perfect" society was not as perfect as they believed it was. When faced with their own doom, they wouldn't know what to do because they have never had to struggle with anything before, so they just summoned a giant familiar to deal with it. When presented with Meteion's report, they would have been divided for the first time in their lives. Emet-Selch later tells us their ways would never had got them this far. By sundering them and making them struggle and contemplate doom regularly, they will know how to cope with division and threats to their existence.
• As I said, if she mobilized the other ancients to end Meteion, they would be divided on what to do for the first time in their lives. Some of them may agree that they should be discarded and they would fight over what to do about the situation. The division would probably be as destructive as the final days itself. She did mobilize a small amount of people that she could trust, but had to be careful not to spread word to Fandaniel because she couldn't trust him with the information. How would she convince Emet-Selch when he was not even convinced the first time?
• She already learned what Dynamis was. Learning more about it wasn't necessary. Traveling to Meteion was and space travel is what she spent years researching with her researchers (one of which becomes The Watcher).

I don’t even know why it’s so hard to understand. THE ECHO EXISTS. She can use the echo to show Emet-Selch of need be. Outside of that though i don’t understand how the only thing you could take away from Elpis Emet is “he wasn’t convinced.” They specifically show us that while not convinced or while he may not totally believe us, he still has a duty to the star and still has to investigate and trust in our claims. But come on now, it’s not like Venat is some stranger to him. He knew he was mind wiped, they’re both friends, she used to be an Azem.

As far as your opinion on the ancients goes, they sacrificed themselves to summon an entity to save the planet. I’m not sure how you can even deem this as a bad thing when even Venat herself states how mandatory he is. How is this any different from us summoning primals to power our spaceship or us summoning primals to fix the empty? The other translations of Emet’s line specifically says their efforts wouldn’t have gotten them to Ultima Thule. That’s it. Not that they wouldn’t have been able to combat Meteion.Also we’re shown they did have to struggle with things. One of the main plot points atm for pandaemonium is someone struggling to deal with the grief of losing a loved one.