Healer Q&A in PLL LXVIII

[Renathras]

The solution is never to raise the skill floor, or else healers would have never have been in this state to begin with.

As for why a healing plan is a thing

I don't understand this argument. On the one hand, you say this can't be done, because people can't clear content. But those people aren't using heal plans. So how is scripted fights that are clearable using heal plans helping these people?

FFXIV WAS designed originally with more healing (RELATIVE TO our healing kits). It was designed for healers to use GCD heals. Remember at level 50 (ARR's level cap), WHM had exactly ONE oGCD heal, Benediction, an emergency panic button. SCHs had only one direct oGCD heal, Lustrate (it also had WD, but that wasn't up front healing.)

ARR was designed with GCD healing in mind and a higher amount of outgoing damage over shorter, more frequent times than today. So was HW. Both Coils and Alex were not designed like modern fights. We did have fairly large and relatively frequent unavoidable damage.

So the game originally WAS designed around this rough concept. At least, moreso than it is now. Whether that was a good or bad thing, worked well or poorly, that we can debate. But appealing to a presumed past authority doesn't support your position here, as that wasn't really true.

.

Oh, and to the last: I'd ask you to understand this is a personal preference thing, I guess?

To me, pressing 11111 is little different than pressing 123124. Both are basically muscle memory. I don't play DPS roles because...I derive zero pleasure/dopamine hits from seeing big damage numbers or "flalessly executing" a rotation. When I get my GNB opener right, I'm like "okay, now that's done...moving on". I don't feel some high level of joy or excitement over a "job well done". To me, the "job well done" is when the screen fades to black for the victory fanfare when the boss dies. That's all I care about. How we get there is immaterial to me. And this goes for solo instances as well.

Indeed, the only thing I get more from playing a tank (I don't ever DPS MSQ) over a healer is things like EW's final solo fight feel a bit more...logical?...when I have a melee weapon. I'd feel the exact same doing that fight on SCH as SMN. It feels the same to me whether rolling through Summons or casting Broil x1,000. I genuinely feel no different about damage. I don't think I could be more ambivalent about it if I tried.

I feel kinda like this is like an asexual person attempting to explain a lack of desire to a non-asexual person, but if someone like Zenos is a combat-sexual, I'm the exact inverse of whatever that is.

On the other hand, I derive tremendous joy from seeing a low healthbar and filling it up, bringing a friend back from the brink, or throwing down mitigation. I LOVE seeing big yellow bars on my party that, after a major attack, still have a little bit of yellow left over. That's incredibly satisfying to me for reasons I can't put into words...

[Renathras]

Yes, Sylphie from the CNJ quests provides a notable example of the archetype.

One would also have to wonder about the popularity of Atonement in WoW going from an optional talent to a fundamental part of Disc Priest gameplay, if "many healers don't want to be damage dealers."

MANY does not mean ALL. You know this, yes?

MANY healers do not agree with, just as MANY healers do not play Disc Priest in WoW.

Why are you playing an MMO, then?

Because there are other types of gameplay in MMYs than that? It's why I play a healer and not a DPS. Like...because of that very thing - that I don't care about that. To help you, it'd be more like saying, in a fighting game, "I don't like special moves but I love using combo attacks", which is an entirely viable form of gameplay. But even there, the comparison is laughable - fighting games have different styles of characters as well (some focus on their special game, some focus on combos, juggles, zoning, etc). Your argument is like a person saying "I don't like to play with specials or be a zoner" means "I don't like to play fighting games" when they DO like playing fighting games as a juggler.

Your comparison is just silly and nonsensical, even with your own example.

You get no satisfaction from "big damage," yet you tank as GNB, the tank with the most DPS buttons in the role? (press X to doubt)

I like GNB precisely because it's easy. The rotation is simple. I hit the buttons on CD and that's how it works. It's the same every time. I don't care about the damage numbers. I also like that it uses a gunsword. /shrug If I wanted an involved DPS rotation, I'd play PLD or DRK. At least, I THINK DRK's is more involved. PLD's is, which is why I don't play it. There's more drift and optimization and that weird "only use 2x Atonements here" nonsense. GNB doesn't have that. It's simple. Though I have considered leveling WAR since it's apparently even easier...

Your arguments just don't make sense, man. Especially your attempts to psychoanalyze me.

I like 21111111. My only complaint - and here's where MAYBE you could agree with me? - is that ALL HEALERS have identical (more or less) DPS kits.

I'd be fine if ONE (say, WHM or SGE) was 211111 and the others were a bit more. Though AST is already busy enough, and SCH doesn't exactly have a shortage of buttons...

.

If you are right that Square won't radically change how they design fights, then you should stop asking for dps rotations for healers, because they won't do that, either. Literally all your arguments - that they won't overhaul tradition - is opposed to your argument for more dps rotations. They just gutted them for ShB after simplifying them in SB and carried that onward into EW complete with a new healer designed around it. "tradition" is against you, here, too.

Against us both, I suppose...

[Renathras]

Stop trying to be Gandhi and start being Gandhi from Civilization.

Okay, this made me laugh. XD

Give me nuclear weapon bomb spam GCDs and we'll talk.

I mean, I already love using Holy on WHM in 4 mans...so...granted, more for the stun than anything.

I'd rather have a healer/support hybrid (buffing, etc) than a green dps any day of the week. If they ever make healing into green DPS for real in FFXIV (they haven't, that's an expectation from about 15% of the community, not the Devs), then I'd just quit healing, and possibly the game, as would something like 30-50% of the healers in this game.

[Silver-Strider]

I don't understand this argument. On the one hand, you say this can't be done, because people can't clear content. But those people aren't using heal plans. So how is scripted fights that are clearable using heal plans helping these people?

FFXIV WAS designed originally with more healing (RELATIVE TO our healing kits). It was designed for healers to use GCD heals. Remember at level 50 (ARR's level cap), WHM had exactly ONE oGCD heal, Benediction, an emergency panic button. SCHs had only one direct oGCD heal, Lustrate (it also had WD, but that wasn't up front healing.)

ARR was designed with GCD healing in mind and a higher amount of outgoing damage over shorter, more frequent times than today. So was HW. Both Coils and Alex were not designed like modern fights. We did have fairly large and relatively frequent unavoidable damage.

So the game originally WAS designed around this rough concept. At least, moreso than it is now. Whether that was a good or bad thing, worked well or poorly, that we can debate. But appealing to a presumed past authority doesn't support your position here, as that wasn't really true.

ARR was a different beast altogether though. Healers had more to do back then with Virus rotations to help mitigate, shielding prey mechanics, etc. Nowadays, I can't even remember the last time I even saw a prey mechanic that needed shielding to survive and we probably never will again because they took away WHM's ability to shield on demand with the removal of Stoneskin. Even then though, Healers would still try and squeeze in some DPS with Cleric Stance dancing and SCH had 5 DoTs to manage while WHM at least had Fluid Aura for some extra damage, so long as the enemy was immune to the KB anyways. Then, when HW came out, WHM got Aero 3 as well and while Fluid Aura lost its damage, it merely got replaced with Assize as an oGCD attack so the emphasis on DPS never went away, even back then.

[rewd]

I'd rather have a healer/support hybrid (buffing, etc) than a green dps any day of the week. If they ever make healing into green DPS for real in FFXIV (they haven't, that's an expectation from about 15% of the community, not the Devs), then I'd just quit healing, and possibly the game, as would something like 30-50% of the healers in this game.

Healer DPS is a critical contribution to avoid enrage. What are you basing your statement on? The devs objectively treat healers as green DPS (every job is a -insert colour- DPS, by the way).

Also, what are you basing your percentages on? I can say some random numbers too, but what would they bring to the discussion?

[Liam_Harper]

Another solution would be to nerf oGCDs. Why are your "cheap" heals (oGCDs) more powerful than your "expensive" heals (GCDs)? Shouldn't oGCDs be used for patching up the party and smoothing damage spikes and GCDs be what you use to actually deal with high damage?

False.

When you ignore the dps loss, GCD heals are far more powerful than oGCD's. Medica II and AspHelios are 1000 potency in a single button with no cooldown. Regen and AspBenefic are 1500 potency. There is a reason most inexperienced healers are GCD heal spammers, because it's an easy, mindless way to heal, just spam your near unlimited use giant heal on a stick and it will cover everything even if you forget the rest of your toolkit.

Let's compare nerfing oGCD's to nerfing GCD heals.

Nerf oGCD's. Gameplay becomes: Glare spam -> Medica II -> Glare spam -> Medica II -> Glare spam -> Medica II -> Glare spam -> Medica II
Nerf GCD's: Gameplay becomes considering when each raidwide is coming up, mapping the fight, letting your Asylums tick, checking if Assize is up before the next raidwide, getting full value from Raptures, Plenary, Temperance, keeping Benison rolling on cd, finding good use for Lilybell and so on... it would also push for classes like WHM to get better tools.

Glare spam is an issue regardless, but that's a different topic. I really don't see oGCD's as the issue though. The issue is there's not enough damage to heal and downtime filler is a single button.

[Deceptus]

P3S Ot cleave and p4s p2 are a nightmare to heal. While a lot of healers are willing to complain how easy it is, almost none would be willing to do it on min ilvl how the fight was intended.Those that week 1/2 cleared the tier at 580 have my respect, that should have a title. Raidwides hit so hard they can oneshot if mitigation isn't planned.

At the savage level there isn't a raidwide that shouldn't be mitigated by at least 20% or more. Reprisal / Feint / Addle / Shields / healer 10% mitigation

[Renathras]

ARR was a different beast altogether though.

Oh, I absolutely AGREE. But my point was, a lot of people try this weird Appeal to (False) Authority Fallacy by suggesting FFXIV has always been the way it is now, when it actually wasn't in ARR or, really, HW. The focus of healers at that time was not on damage, it WAS on healing, and using GCDs to heal. Damage was considered secondary at the time. There was also some point in there where Yoshi P specifically said (whether this was true or not is debateable...) that they did not balance encounters around healers dealing damage. There's a difference between "squeeze in some DPS" and green DPS/"damage always becomes a forefront". People accuse me of wanting to change the game to something it never was, but I'm actually appealing to what it WAS.

Healer DPS is a critical contribution to avoid enrage.

Correct, under the current model. The current model isn't inherent to the game, as it was not the way the game always was. And no, the DEVS do not treat healers - not objectively, anyway - "as green DPS". And no, not "every job" is a "-insert colour- DPS". Red Jobs are DPS. If the others were DPS, they would be named DPS in the game and by the Devs. They are not. [EDIT: Related to this, if a healer goes down in a 4 man, RDM may cast a Vercure on tanks (especially before they get their major self-sustain later on) while Raising the healer. This DOES NOT make the RDM a "red Healer". It makes the RDM a "red DPS" doing healing because the situation demands it, and only so long as the situation demands it.]

Also, what are you basing your percentages on? I can say some random numbers too, but what would they bring to the discussion?

Rough percent of people that complete Savage raid tiers. Varies by tier, but around 1/8 players do so. Much of the playerbase doesn't complete Savage tiers. No content outside of Savage and Ultimate requires healer DPS to beat enrages. In fact, much of the content in the game doesn't even have enrages. Normal mode 8 mans don't have enrages. MSQ trials VERY rarely have enrages, and usually only for add phases before ultimate attacks, and when those do occur, they're extremely lenient. Extremes have enrages, but these are GENERALLY fairly lenient as well, and don't require healer damage in order to beat unless your DPS are bad. If your DPS Jobs are doing their role jobs, you can clear both Trial1 and Trial2 Ex in 570s without healers dealing any damage. As well as the bosses themselves.

Note that even some Savages are lenient here. P1S you can clear in 575 with no healer dps as long as the rest of your team is on point and your DPSers are doing their job.

EDIT: Per FFXIV Collect, <10% have cleared P4S at the moment. Which is supposedly an "easy" Savage raid tier, to hear Savage raiders talk. P3S being a pita aside. I think we can be generous here and say 15-20% of people seriously raid Savage content. Looking at the Eden's Savage I clear achievements, they tend to look like around 20% consistently, if we consider that some clears have come since the level cap/ilevels were raised allowing easier clears for people going back to farm/etc. So 15-20% of people seriously clearing content, where these considerations actually matter, is probably pretty accurate. 60-80% of the population either doesn't do Savages or don't do them seriously to clear them. 60% as a floor, btw, would still be an easy majority of the player base. Fair enough?

[Renathras]

False.

When you ignore the dps loss, GCD heals are far more powerful than oGCD's. Medica II and AspHelios are 1000 potency in a single button with no cooldown. Regen and AspBenefic are 1500 potency. There is a reason most inexperienced healers are GCD heal spammers, because it's an easy, mindless way to heal, just spam your near unlimited use giant heal on a stick and it will cover everything even if you forget the rest of your toolkit.

Let's compare nerfing oGCD's to nerfing GCD heals.

Nerf oGCD's. Gameplay becomes: Glare spam -> Medica II -> Glare spam -> Medica II -> Glare spam -> Medica II -> Glare spam -> Medica II
Nerf GCD's: Gameplay becomes considering when each raidwide is coming up, mapping the fight, letting your Asylums tick, checking if Assize is up before the next raidwide, getting full value from Raptures, Plenary, Temperance, keeping Benison rolling on cd, finding good use for Lilybell and so on... it would also push for classes like WHM to get better tools.

Glare spam is an issue regardless, but that's a different topic. I really don't see oGCD's as the issue though. The issue is there's not enough damage to heal and downtime filler is a single button.

I agree with...your last sentence.

You very much oversell your Nerf GCDs while making a ridiculous caricature of the Nerf oGCDs case. In both cases, as you DO note, we have Glarespam interspaced with things. In the Nerf oGCDs case, you would also have use of Regen (possibly across the entire party, which would be 8 GCDs within there) as well as spot healing since you wouldn't have things like Tetra/Benison and so would have to cover that healing with Cure 2s. WHM is also kind of weird here since Lilies are GCD heals but are instants so feel a bit more like oGCDs even though they...aren't. But you'd also have Lily abilities littered in there.

Moreover, targeted heals - which you completely ignored - require taking individual actions to identify party members needing heals, targeting them, and applying those heals. While targeting doesn't factor into APM counts on things like FFLogs, ask any AST applying Cards and they can tell you that adds to the engagement level of their gameplay since it isn't automatic at all.

So Nerfing oGCDs would not be "Glarespam/Medica 2" and nothing else. Not in any encounter where the Nerf GCDs plays like you suggest (if you're having to do ALL OF THAT with the Nerf GCD view, you're going to have to do more than Medica 2 for the Nerf oGCD case with that level of damage). So be honest in making comparisons, let's be rational adults here and avoid silly caricatures.

[CrimsonGunner]

Oh, I absolutely AGREE. But my point was, a lot of people try this weird Appeal to (False) Authority Fallacy by suggesting FFXIV has always been the way it is now, when it actually wasn't in ARR or, really, HW. The focus of healers at that time was not on damage, it WAS on healing, and using GCDs to heal. Damage was considered secondary at the time. There was also some point in there where Yoshi P specifically said (whether this was true or not is debateable...) that they did not balance encounters around healers dealing damage. There's a difference between "squeeze in some DPS" and green DPS/"damage always becomes a forefront". People accuse me of wanting to change the game to something it never was, but I'm actually appealing to what it WAS.



Correct, under the current model. The current model isn't inherent to the game, as it was not the way the game always was. And no, the DEVS do not treat healers - not objectively, anyway - "as green DPS". And no, not "every job" is a "-insert colour- DPS". Red Jobs are DPS. If the others were DPS, they would be named DPS in the game and by the Devs. They are not.



Rough percent of people that complete Savage raid tiers. Varies by tier, but around 1/8 players do so. Much of the playerbase doesn't complete Savage tiers. No content outside of Savage and Ultimate requires healer DPS to beat enrages. In fact, much of the content in the game doesn't even have enrages. Normal mode 8 mans don't have enrages. MSQ trials VERY rarely have enrages, and usually only for add phases before ultimate attacks, and when those do occur, they're extremely lenient. Extremes have enrages, but these are GENERALLY fairly lenient as well, and don't require healer damage in order to beat unless your DPS are bad. If your DPS Jobs are doing their role jobs, you can clear both Trial1 and Trial2 Ex in 570s without healers dealing any damage. As well as the bosses themselves.

Note that even some Savages are lenient here. P1S you can clear in 575 with no healer dps as long as the rest of your team is on point and your DPSers are doing their job.

The saying "you have clears without healers" means they were not needed for heals, making their healing contributions redundent and also in terms of enrage that just means healers are there to dps so basically 0 healing needed + must dps for enrage = green dps. So no matter content they are dispensible dps making the role feel the worse tnx to the data seeing devs.