Healer Q&A in PLL LXVIII

[Renathras]

Stop trying to be Gandhi and start being Gandhi from Civilization.

Okay, this made me laugh. XD

Give me nuclear weapon bomb spam GCDs and we'll talk.

I mean, I already love using Holy on WHM in 4 mans...so...granted, more for the stun than anything.

I'd rather have a healer/support hybrid (buffing, etc) than a green dps any day of the week. If they ever make healing into green DPS for real in FFXIV (they haven't, that's an expectation from about 15% of the community, not the Devs), then I'd just quit healing, and possibly the game, as would something like 30-50% of the healers in this game.

[rewd]

I'd rather have a healer/support hybrid (buffing, etc) than a green dps any day of the week. If they ever make healing into green DPS for real in FFXIV (they haven't, that's an expectation from about 15% of the community, not the Devs), then I'd just quit healing, and possibly the game, as would something like 30-50% of the healers in this game.

Healer DPS is a critical contribution to avoid enrage. What are you basing your statement on? The devs objectively treat healers as green DPS (every job is a -insert colour- DPS, by the way).

Also, what are you basing your percentages on? I can say some random numbers too, but what would they bring to the discussion?

[Renathras]

ARR was a different beast altogether though.

Oh, I absolutely AGREE. But my point was, a lot of people try this weird Appeal to (False) Authority Fallacy by suggesting FFXIV has always been the way it is now, when it actually wasn't in ARR or, really, HW. The focus of healers at that time was not on damage, it WAS on healing, and using GCDs to heal. Damage was considered secondary at the time. There was also some point in there where Yoshi P specifically said (whether this was true or not is debateable...) that they did not balance encounters around healers dealing damage. There's a difference between "squeeze in some DPS" and green DPS/"damage always becomes a forefront". People accuse me of wanting to change the game to something it never was, but I'm actually appealing to what it WAS.

Healer DPS is a critical contribution to avoid enrage.

Correct, under the current model. The current model isn't inherent to the game, as it was not the way the game always was. And no, the DEVS do not treat healers - not objectively, anyway - "as green DPS". And no, not "every job" is a "-insert colour- DPS". Red Jobs are DPS. If the others were DPS, they would be named DPS in the game and by the Devs. They are not. [EDIT: Related to this, if a healer goes down in a 4 man, RDM may cast a Vercure on tanks (especially before they get their major self-sustain later on) while Raising the healer. This DOES NOT make the RDM a "red Healer". It makes the RDM a "red DPS" doing healing because the situation demands it, and only so long as the situation demands it.]

Also, what are you basing your percentages on? I can say some random numbers too, but what would they bring to the discussion?

Rough percent of people that complete Savage raid tiers. Varies by tier, but around 1/8 players do so. Much of the playerbase doesn't complete Savage tiers. No content outside of Savage and Ultimate requires healer DPS to beat enrages. In fact, much of the content in the game doesn't even have enrages. Normal mode 8 mans don't have enrages. MSQ trials VERY rarely have enrages, and usually only for add phases before ultimate attacks, and when those do occur, they're extremely lenient. Extremes have enrages, but these are GENERALLY fairly lenient as well, and don't require healer damage in order to beat unless your DPS are bad. If your DPS Jobs are doing their role jobs, you can clear both Trial1 and Trial2 Ex in 570s without healers dealing any damage. As well as the bosses themselves.

Note that even some Savages are lenient here. P1S you can clear in 575 with no healer dps as long as the rest of your team is on point and your DPSers are doing their job.

EDIT: Per FFXIV Collect, <10% have cleared P4S at the moment. Which is supposedly an "easy" Savage raid tier, to hear Savage raiders talk. P3S being a pita aside. I think we can be generous here and say 15-20% of people seriously raid Savage content. Looking at the Eden's Savage I clear achievements, they tend to look like around 20% consistently, if we consider that some clears have come since the level cap/ilevels were raised allowing easier clears for people going back to farm/etc. So 15-20% of people seriously clearing content, where these considerations actually matter, is probably pretty accurate. 60-80% of the population either doesn't do Savages or don't do them seriously to clear them. 60% as a floor, btw, would still be an easy majority of the player base. Fair enough?

[rewd]

Correct, under the current model. The current model isn't inherent to the game, as it was not the way the game always was. And no, the DEVS do not treat healers - not objectively, anyway - "as green DPS". And no, not "every job" is a "-insert colour- DPS". Red Jobs are DPS. If the others were DPS, they would be named DPS in the game and by the Devs. They are not.

Who decided the 'current' model? Did the playerbase once wake up and decide to point a gun at the devs' heads? Everything in this game revolves around DPS. You don't have to like it, but being delusional, arguing semantics and engaging in mental gymnastics to prove a point that is only in your head won't magically bring convincing arguments to you.

Rough percent of people that complete Savage raid tiers. Varies by tier, but around 1/8 players do so. Much of the playerbase doesn't complete Savage tiers. No content outside of Savage and Ultimate requires healer DPS to beat enrages. In fact, much of the content in the game doesn't even have enrages. Normal mode 8 mans don't have enrages. MSQ trials VERY rarely have enrages, and usually only for add phases before ultimate attacks, and when those do occur, they're extremely lenient. Extremes have enrages, but these are GENERALLY fairly lenient as well, and don't require healer damage in order to beat unless your DPS are bad. If your DPS Jobs are doing their role jobs, you can clear both Trial1 and Trial2 Ex in 570s without healers dealing any damage. As well as the bosses themselves.

Note that even some Savages are lenient here. P1S you can clear in 575 with no healer dps as long as the rest of your team is on point and your DPSers are doing their job.

Ok, so that's a meaningless percentage and also very inaccurate as it doesn't include people that cleared the tier and didn't get the mount. It also significantly underestimates the percentage of people that plays Savage but doesn't clear the tier.
Weren't you accusing Semirhage of being dismissive a few posts ago? Yet, here you are with your "only xy% thinks that anyway, I'm an omniscient being so I know a large part of the playerbase thinks exactly like ME." When you elevate yourself as a weird kind of healer spokesperson and throw some random numbers around, the conversation becomes meaningless because so are your arguments.

Also, you were talking about fallacies a few posts ago too, yet you fell victim of a rather funny fallacy yourself. In order to confute that "Devs do see healer DPS as a necessity because you need it to clear content", you don't use a single, random, instance to prove a point. Yes, P1S has a very lenient DPS check. Very surprising for the Savage entry point. What about P4S? Could you clear the tier with no healer DPS at all? If yes, healing DPS is indeed just a bonus and that 15% of the playerbase just lives in a collective delusion. If not, the devs objectively (sorry, no mental gymnastics can change this) see healer DPS as a necessity and as a fundamental part of the healer role.
I can use your "logic" and claim that tanks are not necessary in this game because I can clear Sastasha - as well as many other duties - with no tank at all.

Lastly, what does 'green DPS' actually even mean? Why does playing the role as intended in hard content and optimally in casual content gains me the 'green DPS' nickname? Why does griefing your party in hard content and playing sub-optimally (thus wasting people's time) in casual content grants someone the status of great defender of the honour and pride of the healer role? You can call me 'green DPS' if you wish. In return, you can be a Sylphie, not a healer.

[Beddict]

EDIT: Per FFXIV Collect, <10% have cleared P4S at the moment. Which is supposedly an "easy" Savage raid tier, to hear Savage raiders talk. P3S being a pita aside. I think we can be generous here and say 15-20% of people seriously raid Savage content. Looking at the Eden's Savage I clear achievements, they tend to look like around 20% consistently, if we consider that some clears have come since the level cap/ilevels were raised allowing easier clears for people going back to farm/etc. So 15-20% of people seriously clearing content, where these considerations actually matter, is probably pretty accurate. 60-80% of the population either doesn't do Savages or don't do them seriously to clear them. 60% as a floor, btw, would still be an easy majority of the player base. Fair enough?

To quote the FAQ on FFXIV Collect:

How are your ownership percentages calculated?

Ownership is calculated based on publicly available characters who have been updated on the site in the past 3 months and possess at least one collectable in a given category.

These percentages are not a reflection of the entire playerbase, but rather a subset of players who are interested in collecting things. If you are looking to collect competitively, then this is probably the data you want.

In addition, the amount of players actually using FFXIV Collect is tiny. Again, from the FAQ:

How many players are tracked by FFXIV Collect?

Users
86,314
Public Characters
230,033
Active Public Characters
85,500
Active Characters with Public Achievements
47,189

FFXIV Collect accounts for a small portion of the player base and only cares about people who have cleared the tier. Like rewd said, it can't tell you anything about people that are still progging the tier. The actual amount of players participating in Savage is going to be a hell of a lot higher than what FFXIV Collect shows, but only SE has the actual data and they ain't sharing it.