What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Theodric]

There's a lot of interesting contradictions when it comes to Emet-Selch which is why I consider him to be a fascinating character. He fully intended to sacrifice Garlemald in the name of the Rejoinings but there's subtle things such as this:



Which serve to convince me that he was conflicted by it in the same way as how he didn't necessarily want to confront 'Azem' but had to if he wished to succeed. His treatment of Varis mirrors his treatment of Elidibus and Lahabrea who in all three cases are very much a reminder of what he has lost.

His efforts to try and live amongst the Sundered did appear to be genuine, though - so I do think there's a good chance that it was his son's death that burned any bridges other than the Rejoinings. I hope we learn more about Solus' wife and son in the future, even if it's just a paragraph in a future lore book or side quest.

[Teraq]

His efforts to try and live amongst the Sundered did appear to be genuine, though - so I do think there's a good chance that it was his son's death that burned any bridges other than the Rejoinings.

Oh absolutely. It seems like he kept trying and giving them chances. By the time we see him, he seems exhausted. traitor.

[Lauront]

But as part of the overall picture relentlessly pushing that framing of Venat on us? Yes, it was tiresome, and I wasn't much into the "oh, you scamp" tone when Emet noted how very deeply Venat had screwed him over in particular. I was glad, at least, he fairly brusquely flipped Hydaelyn off and rejected her "apology" to him altogether.

It's just a pity that they didn't use the French/German wording for the scene in the EN version, because it's less susceptible to being twisted into some all-encompassing supposed concession on his that the ancients had no hope of dealing with the situation, which I think is not even a very plausible reading of it in the EN version, and even if it were taken that way, while very smart, he's not omniscient. But it's even more fraught with difficulty in those versions, because he specifically praises her ability as a matchmaker and bringing them all together at that place.

And again, though I've finally understood Venat (thanks Brinne) I still hate the scions. I realized that other than Estinien, the scions are generally privileged, all come from sharlayan and I don't feel should represent humanity in the game. The twins even come from a rich family. Estinien literally walked in the shoes of his enemy and got to know him and shared his pain. The most important thing is we got to see that and we were there with him.G'raha Tia's story was only in writing and we don't even know how long he stayed in the calamity world before he was shipped off to the past. We don't see it, we are just told, this happens.

I don't have an issue with their backgrounds as such, as ultimately it's just a starting point in life. I wouldn't've found it much compelling if they dragged a bunch of Estiniens to try force the point they were trying to make, because I reject the premise they're trying to push from the outset. It's more that they suffer very little in the way of any actual threats and are thickly shrouded in plot armour.

Honestly Fandaniel brightened my day whenever he appeared ever since 5.3. I think I just enjoyed my mental picture of a Joker-like, watch-the-world-burn Ascian finally set loose and making absolutely ghastly creations like the goddamned towers made of flesh from a dismembered corpse... better than what his whole character actually turned out to be. The gross flesh walls, the horrifying mass zombification of Garlemald, the creepy and weirdly amusing dinner date as you are incapacitated... I loved it honestly, I thought he had a real horror vibe going on that we didn't have in other villains so far (along with the Final Days when they actually matter – I absolutely loved the scene where it starts low-key, and I love its "musical theme").

Agreed, I enjoyed him as a character, as well as giving the impression that he might be serving some old god/Jenova type entity. I think the speculation surrounding him was far more interesting than what they went with.

One way I can enjoy Hermes is if I project that Fandaniel onto him, very deep inside of him, stifled by the society and culture he lived in. Like you though, the "but what is the meaning of life and death" angle did not work me, and the whole animal rights thing, while IMO an actually justified question to raise for debate in Ancient society, just grated on me because of how much the game seemed to be taking his side at the expanse of Ancients as a whole (also, real talk: I am arachnophobic and will irrationally not tolerate any damned eight-legged fiend in my bedroom; I have a good friend who always goes "NOOOoooOOO WHY WOULD YOU KILL SUCH A NOBLE ANIMAL" and while I know she's semi-joking, it still kind of annoys me... Hermes just reminded me of that lol). I was just... tired of him really quick. I became more engrossed when he finally let the villain inside him shine, but then, you know. The plot happened. The time loop plot. The Kairos plot. Venat actually complying with the conditions of his insane test and the game apparently telling me this is the right thing to do because Ancients just kinda sorta totally sucked and she's a hero, and, honestly, just everything Venat. Damn it. You're hired, Danny.

It's also not a particularly compelling angle to push when the sundered have a breezy disregard for life forms inferior to them and sometimes even similar ones, and when the Elpis sidequests showed some other ancients shared his sensibilities to some degree. It's why I believe the whole thing was more or less dropped from Venat's rendition of the 'test'. She didn't care about that, and neither do the player characters (or their companions) to any extent. I don't really buy into Hermes's POV, but he could've taken up a position at the Convocation and used that as you say to debate the matter and perhaps convince others to alter their methods. His reaction instead is one of petulant spite.

There's an interview with Yoshi-P, Ishikawa, and Oda in the next issue of Famitsu magazine. No translation that I know of yet.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...e_50page_ff14/

Some comment I saw of the poll results on that.

[Teraq]

Agreed, I enjoyed him as a character, as well as giving the impression that he might be serving some old god/Jenova type entity. I think the speculation surrounding him was far more interesting than what they went with.

I don't know what it's called in English, but in French Lunar Bahamut's raidwide AOE in Paglth'an is called "Scream of The Anomaly", and given the context we had at the time – that Fandaniel was apparently trying to recreate the Final Days with this plot –, I really liked the thought of referring to whatever caused the apocalypse as The Anomaly. I felt it conveyed something deeply wrong and Eldritch.

While I'm not super mald about the concept of Meteion herself, well, I suppose she didn't quite live up to what I had in mind. I wish I hadn't had anything in mind; I would have probably enjoyed EW a lot more.

[Lauront]

I probably wouldn't say I'd enjoy it a lot more, due to the plot issues we've discussed extensively. Even if I went in with a mindset of "surprise me" - and I sort of did, because I rarely expect speculation to pan out to any great degree - it was not in a positive direction. As I've said, more of a rollercoaster for me than SB, with some highs, some lows, but on aggregate they're about the same in my eyes, only at least SB had expectations of future plot development, whereas EW is meant to conclude the current saga.

[Rulakir]

that being said, I am extremely glad that Yoshida doesn't want the characters to be reincarnated. I don't like the whole "spiritual successor" as it feels extremely cheap. If we are going to have characters like a previous character, then use the character.

I don't know how reincarnation would even work within the WoL's lifespan. What point is there in 5 years from now coming across a 5-year old Emet & Hythlodaeus? It also means whenever the WoL dies they'll be in their 40s and everyone will just remain separated. Reincarnation only works as something at the end of a series and even then I don't know that FFXIV would do it because in their eyes the WoL would be surrounded by their Scion BFFs, not Azem's BFFs.

What I could see them doing is having Emet as a spiritual companion/guide similar to Ardbert if we visit another shard, especially one where he's created an empire.

And again, though I've finally understood Venat (thanks Brinne) I still hate the scions. I realized that other than Estinien, the scions are generally privileged, all come from sharlayan and I don't feel should represent humanity in the game.

Agreed. I think EW put an unflattering spotlight on the Scions where their homogeneity and privilege were on full display. It's odd, but I feel like EW caused me to dislike them where I didn't particularly have negative feelings towards them (except Urianger) previously. It wasn't helped by Alisaie becoming Alphinaud 2.0 in Garlemald, Krile becoming Minfilia 2.0, the Scions not being more critical of Venat, etc. Not to mention the sheer amount of plot armor where they've now gone through multiple wars and universal threats without notable losses, yet this is the group that is supposed to exemplify overcoming suffering and despair when they're invincible. I know it's subjective, but for me it was only believable coming from Estinien and G'raha. I'm especially over Alphinaud's idealism and if Alisaie is going to start echoing that I will go insane. Please give me a realist party with Estinien and Fordola.

[PawPaw]

The Famitsu Fan Survey is out. Looks like Emet-Selch is still reigning from on high as the king of popularity.

[Ixon]

When they wrote themselves into the plotline that Zodiark was initially summoned to quell the catastrophe of the Final Days instead of being the source of it(like I believed before ShB), they had to come up with SOMETHING bigger and badder. The path they took was at least was more interesting than "Zodiark Bad, Hydaelyn Good", and I at least felt that going with the direction they did was more interesting than just some super evil guy that was just evil for the sake of being evil. I didn't really see Meiton as the ultimate baddy, but more just a conduit or tangible form of the ultimate baddie, that of the overall despair and hopelessness in the cosmos. Yes, she was the one who was shooting despair rays of despair at Etheirys , but I didn't personally feel like I defeated Metion at the end, I felt more like I had overcome the overall feeling of despair through my own desire to live. Perhaps that was a bad thing story wise? That I didn't really care much for the character that was Meiton but more of what she was representing? Not sure.

Other ranting thoughts: Fandaniel was a breath of fresh air, oddly enough, as it was nice to have someone who just wanted to watch the world burn and didn't have ulterior motives wrapped in "actually a good guy" plots like almost every other villain in FF had. Hermes was believable to an extent. In a civilization who all functioned on the same brainwave for the most part I am sure he felt extremely alienated amongst his piers based off his values of life as shown with the creations. Venat I didn't really have any feelings for. The more I recently read here the more I can see the confusion of her as a character and I can share the same thoughts, but for me in the beginning, when we learned she was the heart of Hydaelyn anytime I met her in the back of my mind I always though "that's cool, but we still have to get rid of your primalness". Oddly enough, the more I learned about Zodiark, the less I cares about him. He went from being the ultimate villain to a puppet on some strings. With the unsundrered gone, Fandaniel seemed best to pilot the Zodiark mecha as if Zenos did it would have just felt like Shinryu 2.0. As much as even I think time travel is a cop out, I think it was the only way to see the ancients as they were and not just as spooky specters in Amaurot, which I enjoyed. We could have maybe not have done the whole explanation that we are from the future, Venat knowing who we are and continuing to know till the end, and instead just have been able to watch the events before the final days unfold, but I assume there was some reason why they decided to go that route. Overall I think this wrapping up of the story could have probably been better told especially across two expansion instead of one, but I am also happy to get move away from this plotline(with occasional revisits) and onto something new.

[aveyond-dreams]

The Famitsu Fan Survey is out. Looks like Emet-Selch is still reigning from on high as the king of popularity.

Unsurprising in that regard, though I'm forever bewildered as to why people remain so attached to Haurchefant. Several months after beating Endwalker the only clear memory I retained of G'raha Tia was him eating a hamburger. I suppose he will continue to serve as weird comic relief in the cast moving forward, since he provides little else outside utility as an all-rounder in Trusts.

I'm not very deep into Stranger of Paradise yet but already I find myself wishing we could have a Jack of our own in this game, impatient foot-tapping and all. Estinien used to be more like him, but since his major arc is over he's since calmed down. I still would like something more meaningful and entertaining than a pretty boy constantly telling us how much he cares about us or eating hamburgers. It's fun to watch Jacks and Estiniens interact with the world, less so G'raha and Haurchefant.

Guess we'll just have to wait for Thancred's alleged "cool moment" in 6.1 to pay off, because I remember nothing of what he did in Endwalker other than the "This is Thancred" meme.

[Teraq]

I probably wouldn't say I'd enjoy it a lot more, due to the plot issues we've discussed extensively.

It's true the plot has ... issues. But I think that, as far as I'm concerned at least, there's a bit of self-reinforcing bias in how I see Endwalker: it rubbed me the wrong way therefore I am very willing to look for any inconsistency and articulate exactly how and why it bothered me. I would probably be a lot more forgiving of the damned memory-wiped causal time loop and everything else if I had loved most everything EW threw my way and cried all the way through Ultima Thule.

only at least SB had expectations of future plot development, whereas EW is meant to conclude the current saga.

This is by far the most damning thing about it all in my opinion. I acutely felt it as I was playing through EW actually: even after we got rid of any sort of Ascian/Zodiark plot after level 83, I was still fairly enthusiastic because I wasn't done yet; there was still hope. Level 85? Oh, there is a god after all and he's wearing white hooded robes and a red mask, this is going to get better, THERE IS STILL HOPE! And then the more things went on, the less copium I had left. The deadline of the game's ending was fast approaching and I was faced with the realisation that this was it.