Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[Jandor]

It’s certainly subjective in the end. Personally i found it felt like one bad thing to the next between sastasha, then tam tara with edda’s party, then learning about tempering and how there was no hope for those people, then learning of the Kobolds, then the waking sands massacre etc etc.

That stuff has the same problem, so to speak, that you have with Tesleen. You spend about ten minutes on it and then move on.

The Tesleen scene didn't really make me all that sad, as you said, we don't know her all that well. The strength of it, same as the ARR stuff, is in the implications.

Tesleen shows what happens when a Sineater kills you, you painfully turn into a monster.
I don't care about the tempered soldiers, but the scene reveals that Primals can permanently enslave people.
I didn't really care about Edda, (well, not till she was fleshed out after) but that part shows just how dangerous adventuring can be.

[Rulakir]

You also seem hung up on one line from a short side story not present in the game itself about a scenario that was only a possibility and didn’t even come to pass. And the reason the WoL had to come back wasn’t specifically to “save the hero” it was because that moment led to a chain reaction that would eventually lead to the end of all of the worlds and the full Rejoining.

Are you talking about the belief the 8UC timeline would disappear? Because that was an important plot point in ShB. There's a cutscene in 5.0 where Urianger tells G'raha if his plan is successful he will cease to exist, which he acknowledges. Once we defeat Emet, G'raha is surprised he didn't disappear (especially since the Scions being returned to the Source hinged upon his "death") and ponders whether or not the 8UC timeline still exists in some capacity. All the short story did was confirm it does.

I also think saying that the 8UC is doomed to a full rejoining is a stretch. It'd taken the Ascians 12k years to manage 8 of them, there were still 5 left and without the assistance of Lahabrea. Just because the 7th and 8th happened within ~5 years of each other doesn't mean the others were primed to topple over like dominoes. I have theorized that the reason Elidibus bothered with the First in 5.3 rather than moving on is because they didn't have another shard anywhere near as close to a rejoining as it was. It's entirely possible that the WoL would reincarnate, once again be groomed by Hydaelyn, and be pitted against Emet and/or Elidibus before a 9th UC had the chance to occur. We know that Azem is Emet's Achilles' Heel, so things likely rapidly unravel once they're face-to-face especially since it was after the 8th soul rejoining that Emet was able to recognize Azem in the WoL.

Although, I have wondered if they were successful, would Hydaelyn try a sundering 2.0 or finally concede she needed to tell them the truth?

[KizuyaKatogami]

That stuff has the same problem, so to speak, that you have with Tesleen. You spend about ten minutes on it and then move on.

The Tesleen scene didn't really make me all that sad, as you said, we don't know her all that well. The strength of it, same as the ARR stuff, is in the implications.

Tesleen shows what happens when a Sineater kills you, you painfully turn into a monster.
I don't care about the tempered soldiers, but the scene reveals that Primals can permanently enslave people.
I didn't really care about Edda, (well, not till she was fleshed out after) but that part shows just how dangerous adventuring can be.

Right, very true regarding the implications, and i feel like ARR/HW did better in the showing rather than telling aspect of things. We have the things in ShB like oh the scions are on a ticking time bomb but then nothing comes from that. We have oh Graha gets weaker the farther and longer he’s away from the tower…but then is somehow at full power in Amaurot. It’s just things like that, that add up for pseudo consequence but nothing ever comes from it. Compare that to say the banquet and the first use of flow where it actually had lasting consequences, or some of the deaths in HW. While there were the little cheery moments here and there i don’t feel like they took away from the atmosphere like the tea and lunch dates or Loporrits did in EW.

[Tehmon]

Shadowbringers was probably one of the most macabre and bleak settings I've yet to experience in a Final Fantasy game, and I've played several. The entirety of 5.0 MSQ makes me deeply uncomfortable and disturbed, in a way that any great piece of horror adjacent media should. I need to power through the 5.0 MSQ as quickly as possible, because I can't find peace of mind otherwise. Despite me finding the story distressing and really vile at times, it's still one of my favorite expansions and Final Fantasy stories overall. But to say it was in any way positive? Hmmmh... I don't know, I can't really see it.

[MikkoAkure]

Compared to the back to back horror in ARR this isn’t really much.

Ah yes. The horrors of:
Dancing for Slyphs
"Tidus"
A Goblin invasion over a cheese recipe
Chasing down a Spriggan named "Giggity"
Good King Moggle Mog

Every main story has its light moments. It's not back-to-back bad stuff happening. And if you're doing sidequests at the same time as MSQ, ARR also has stuff like oiling up and massaging a dirty old man before he's properly introduced in the Hildebrand questline

I also think saying that the 8UC is doomed to a full rejoining is a stretch. It'd taken the Ascians 12k years to manage 8 of them, there were still 5 left and without the assistance of Lahabrea. Just because the 7th and 8th happened within ~5 years of each other doesn't mean the others were primed to topple over like dominoes.

Pretty sure it was said somewhere in the game that with each Calamity, Zodiark grows stronger and Hydaelyn grows weaker. And I thought that was taken further in Shadowbringers by someone saying that after the next one, those after would have nothing to prevent them from happening as Hydaelyn would be took weak to do anything. By the end of ARR, she's already basically at the end of her rope.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Ah yes. The horrors of:
Dancing for Slyphs
"Tidus"
A Goblin invasion over a cheese recipe
Chasing down a Spriggan named "Giggity"
Good King Moggle Mog

Every main story has its light moments. It's not back-to-back bad stuff happening. And if you're doing sidequests at the same time as MSQ, ARR also has stuff like oiling up and massaging a dirty old man before he's properly introduced in the Hildebrand questline



Pretty sure it was said somewhere in the game that with each Calamity, Zodiark grows stronger and Hydaelyn grows weaker. And I thought that was taken further in Shadowbringers by someone saying that after the next one, those after would have nothing to prevent them from happening as Hydaelyn would be took weak to do anything. By the end of ARR, she's already basically at the end of her rope.

Like i said, ARR and HW had cheery moments as well, but they were typically timed in good places that didn’t take away from the story. Compare that to say, Graha’s sparkly eye fanservice after we had just learned about the mass tempering towers in ShB, or the playing dress up 5-10 mins after just defeating one of the two main deities of a 10 year arc. Yeah…pretty clear cut. The point is ARR and HW at least had lasting consequences from its darker moments. It wasn’t just pseudo consequence. This is something both ShB and EW lacked and to a degeee SB.

[Rulakir]

Pretty sure it was said somewhere in the game that with each Calamity, Zodiark grows stronger and Hydaelyn grows weaker. And I thought that was taken further in Shadowbringers by someone saying that after the next one, those after would have nothing to prevent them from happening as Hydaelyn would be took weak to do anything. By the end of ARR, she's already basically at the end of her rope.

Hm, I just finished replaying ShB not that long ago and I don't recall anything about the 8th rejoining being some kind of point of no return. Hydaelyn hasn't been shown to be able to prevent any of the rejoinings even when Zodiark was at his weakest, so her continuing to not be able to do so is consistent. Her plan always came down to the WoL, so it's just whether or not she has the power to protect the next reincarnation long enough to accomplish anything.

[Kozh]

I think they’re certainly capable of doing so yet I think, like Venat, that the Sundered were less able to do so to the reality of their circumstances. The imperfections of life are more apparent when you have to grow your own food.

Man, can't wait for Venat 2.0 to do another sundering should the sundered turn away from their reality in the future.

Good argument.

Thanks, good for you to finally admit it.

See you’re trying to force equivalence. Exactly how is it turning away from reality to desire another future for people who aren’t you? There was no ending to their actions that would actively undo their present circumstance, at best it would mean another wouldn’t have to suffer and no change in circumstances for you/at worst it mean the end of your timeline. They looked at the world as it was and said, “let’s make sure others don’t have to suffer, using the knowledge and information we fought to obtain.” Nothing is forgotten or left behind, and no one is turning away from reality. Unlike the Ancients.

Now you're the one trying to force equivalence. As I said before, it doesn't matter if their action doesn't benefit them directly, because the point is that they try to erase a reality where the sundered race are dying. If anything, it's the non-Ironworks people who fight tooth and nail just to survive to see another day are the one who's more fit to Venat's ideology of "facing despair". If the time is a timeloop and they ended up to the same future, what they gonna do? Reset the timeline again? How many time would they do that before finally giving up? Everything and every knowledge during that time period WOULD BE forgotten if not for g'raha existence.

“let’s make sure others don’t have to suffer, using the knowledge and information we fought to obtain”. By your logic here, this also applicable to the Ancients lol. They don't want their friends to suffer eternally inside zodiark and they want to ensure the future generation to not suffer. So what's the difference except for the moral dilemma of sacrificing other creatures?

The Ancients were not sacrificing the surviving ones first off. They were sacrificing the life that would spring up post Final Days.

IF

I’m sorry but how could she be working with the rejoining in mind if her intent was to save Emet, and Lahabrea/Elidibus “happened to be nearby.” That’s not intent that’s an accident.

Because she doesn't spare emet out of kindness?? She needs him, if not for rejoining, then at the very least for him to help the WoL once he regain his memories (though this is a pretty big gamble). Like, she did the sundering knowing the risk of rejoining that could happen. Then on top of that she spare emet, whom she knows will try rejoining should he survive. Like you said before, nothing set in stone (as far as she knew), so all of this are a gamble to her. She gambled that by sparing him, the timeline will be as close as possible to our timeline. Even during our farewell in Elpis, she already said "... or perhaps we will meet again...".

I don't get it, you yourself said the characters are not perfect nor black and white, so why it's so hard to acknowledge that she did the sundering and sparing emet selch knowing that it'll most likely lead to rejoinings? After all, the sundering isn't less worse than rejoining, and she already bloodied her hand at that point.

He didn’t say that and you know it Kozh, you are lying.

wow I didn't know the second sentence were spoken by someone else, not by Yoshida....

Oh yeah, forgot to mention. About the "needless suffering" I mention on my last post, your take on it is 100% not what I meant , at all. This is probably a matter of miscommunication, so I'll let it slide for now.

[EaraGrace]

Man, can't wait for Venat 2.0 to do another sundering should the sundered turn away from their reality in the future.

Guess we’ll cross that bridge when we get to it

Thanks, good for you to finally admit it.

I can’t roll my eyes hard enough.

Now you're the one trying to force equivalence.

Considering I’m arguing against an equivalence I feel you’re not understanding what I’m trying to say.

As I said before, it doesn't matter if their action doesn't benefit them directly, because the point is that they try to erase a reality where the sundered race are dying. If anything, it's the non-Ironworks people who fight tooth and nail just to survive to see another day are the one who's more fit to Venat's ideology of "facing despair".

Why does everyone think the Ironworks crew expected 100% to perish? It was a possibility sure, but not a certainty, and it definitely wasn’t something they desired or preferred.

If the time is a timeloop and they ended up to the same future, what they gonna do? Reset the timeline again? How many time would they do that before finally giving up? Everything and every knowledge during that time period WOULD BE forgotten if not for g'raha existence.

Considering we know from the story itself that they joined with Midgardsormr to craft a brighter future despite not knowing if their plan worked or not, I’m gonna say you didn’t actually read the story.

“let’s make sure others don’t have to suffer, using the knowledge and information we fought to obtain”. By your logic here, this also applicable to the Ancients lol. They don't want their friends to suffer eternally inside zodiark and they want to ensure the future generation to not suffer. So what's the difference except for the moral dilemma of sacrificing other creatures?

How are they helping the next generation by sacrificing it? Once again, we’re back to using chickens to sacrifice Zodiark!

Because she doesn't spare emet out of kindness?? She needs him, if not for rejoining, then at the very least for him to help the WoL once he regain his memories (though this is a pretty big gamble).

Yeah, that second one is the reason I believe she spared him. We’re on the same page.

Like, she did the sundering knowing the risk of rejoining that could happen. Then on top of that she spare emet, whom she knows will try rejoining should he survive. Like you said before, nothing set in stone (as far as she knew), so all of this are a gamble to her. She gambled that by sparing him, the timeline will be as close as possible to our timeline. Even during our farewell in Elpis, she already said "... or perhaps we will meet again...".

Right, she recognized the possibility that the timelines would converge. This matches with Emets comment on Venat “leaving room for this outcome” which portrays her as someone willing to be flexible and adjust her plan. Onto the the rest; the issue I believe that Venat faced was that after the Sundering and after Hydaelyns inevitable death, there would exist no Unsundered to possibly assist those sent to Ultima Thule. While this wasn’t absolutely necessary or needed, having Emet or Hythlo join those sent to fight Meteion would be a clear benefit, but not absolutely and thus worth leaving to chance (or in other words “leaving room for this outcome”). So that explains why she left a gap that only Emet could see, as Hyth would be in Zodiark and thus he’s the only one left with knowledge of Meteion and the events of Elpis. What she didn’t plan on was Lahabrea to “happen to be nearby” with Elidibus and for all three to work together.

I don't get it, you yourself said the characters are not perfect nor black and white, so why it's so hard to acknowledge that she did the sundering and sparing emet selch knowing that it'll most likely lead to rejoinings? After all, the sundering isn't less worse than rejoining, and she already bloodied her hand at that point.

Because I just don’t think that was her intention. It doesn’t match her statements both in Elpis and afterwards, and it doesn’t make sense given her actions previously. If her intent was to follow the description of events we gave her, then she wouldn’t just need Emet to be spared, but Lahabrea and Elidibus too. Not only that, but her plan would fail from the start if they didn’t manage to escape, which again given it was described by Yoshi P as a gamble it would mean this plan is reliant on a gamble and two coincidences just to get off the ground. On top of that, her later efforts to halt the Rejoinings would constantly run the risk of splitting the timeline, which again would mean failure. Thus, with all of this in mind, I think there’s lot of chances for failure in that plan, a plan that also goes against her stated beliefs, and thus I don’t personally think it makes sense to believe that was her intention. The description I’m arguing for doesn’t run into these problems and remains consistent with both her decisions and stated beliefs.

wow I didn't know the second sentence were spoken by someone else, not by Yoshida....

Kozh… you aren’t seriously arguing that the statement “she definitely made sure the timeline played out that way” is the same as “this is another interpretation”, an interpretation he explicitly says he doesn’t hold or agree with. You aren’t seriously pretending that’s what that says right?

Oh yeah, forgot to mention. About the "needless suffering" I mention on my last post, your take on it is 100% not what I meant , at all. This is probably a matter of miscommunication, so I'll let it slide for now.

How magnanimous of you, O Great Kozh.

[Lyth]

It's worth noting that the official Live Letter recap thread is up on the forums for your perusal.

Q: I don’t really understand why the Warrior of Light messing around in Elpis didn’t create any alternate timelines. Can you explain what happened?

（03:18:39）

A: First of all, we’ve left that part up to interpretation.

With that said, my personal interpretation is that the past and present were always the part of the same timeline. Although there was still a possibility for the timelines to diverge, the Warrior of Light was unwittingly acting in accordance with Venat’s plans, which unified the past and present. Another interpretation might be that Venat worked really hard behind the scenes to ensure that the timeline wouldn’t go awry.

Seeing how Argos took to us on our first meeting, I’d say that proves that the past and present were already unified.

It's a bit of an unusual answer, given that he offers you the choice of two interpretations, and then proceeds to give you hard evidence why one is correct and the other isn't.