Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[Kozh]

I think they’re certainly capable of doing so yet I think, like Venat, that the Sundered were less able to do so to the reality of their circumstances. The imperfections of life are more apparent when you have to grow your own food.

Man, can't wait for Venat 2.0 to do another sundering should the sundered turn away from their reality in the future.

Good argument.

Thanks, good for you to finally admit it.

See you’re trying to force equivalence. Exactly how is it turning away from reality to desire another future for people who aren’t you? There was no ending to their actions that would actively undo their present circumstance, at best it would mean another wouldn’t have to suffer and no change in circumstances for you/at worst it mean the end of your timeline. They looked at the world as it was and said, “let’s make sure others don’t have to suffer, using the knowledge and information we fought to obtain.” Nothing is forgotten or left behind, and no one is turning away from reality. Unlike the Ancients.

Now you're the one trying to force equivalence. As I said before, it doesn't matter if their action doesn't benefit them directly, because the point is that they try to erase a reality where the sundered race are dying. If anything, it's the non-Ironworks people who fight tooth and nail just to survive to see another day are the one who's more fit to Venat's ideology of "facing despair". If the time is a timeloop and they ended up to the same future, what they gonna do? Reset the timeline again? How many time would they do that before finally giving up? Everything and every knowledge during that time period WOULD BE forgotten if not for g'raha existence.

“let’s make sure others don’t have to suffer, using the knowledge and information we fought to obtain”. By your logic here, this also applicable to the Ancients lol. They don't want their friends to suffer eternally inside zodiark and they want to ensure the future generation to not suffer. So what's the difference except for the moral dilemma of sacrificing other creatures?

The Ancients were not sacrificing the surviving ones first off. They were sacrificing the life that would spring up post Final Days.

IF

I’m sorry but how could she be working with the rejoining in mind if her intent was to save Emet, and Lahabrea/Elidibus “happened to be nearby.” That’s not intent that’s an accident.

Because she doesn't spare emet out of kindness?? She needs him, if not for rejoining, then at the very least for him to help the WoL once he regain his memories (though this is a pretty big gamble). Like, she did the sundering knowing the risk of rejoining that could happen. Then on top of that she spare emet, whom she knows will try rejoining should he survive. Like you said before, nothing set in stone (as far as she knew), so all of this are a gamble to her. She gambled that by sparing him, the timeline will be as close as possible to our timeline. Even during our farewell in Elpis, she already said "... or perhaps we will meet again...".

I don't get it, you yourself said the characters are not perfect nor black and white, so why it's so hard to acknowledge that she did the sundering and sparing emet selch knowing that it'll most likely lead to rejoinings? After all, the sundering isn't less worse than rejoining, and she already bloodied her hand at that point.

He didn’t say that and you know it Kozh, you are lying.

wow I didn't know the second sentence were spoken by someone else, not by Yoshida....

Oh yeah, forgot to mention. About the "needless suffering" I mention on my last post, your take on it is 100% not what I meant , at all. This is probably a matter of miscommunication, so I'll let it slide for now.

[EaraGrace]

Man, can't wait for Venat 2.0 to do another sundering should the sundered turn away from their reality in the future.

Guess we’ll cross that bridge when we get to it

Thanks, good for you to finally admit it.

I can’t roll my eyes hard enough.

Now you're the one trying to force equivalence.

Considering I’m arguing against an equivalence I feel you’re not understanding what I’m trying to say.

As I said before, it doesn't matter if their action doesn't benefit them directly, because the point is that they try to erase a reality where the sundered race are dying. If anything, it's the non-Ironworks people who fight tooth and nail just to survive to see another day are the one who's more fit to Venat's ideology of "facing despair".

Why does everyone think the Ironworks crew expected 100% to perish? It was a possibility sure, but not a certainty, and it definitely wasn’t something they desired or preferred.

If the time is a timeloop and they ended up to the same future, what they gonna do? Reset the timeline again? How many time would they do that before finally giving up? Everything and every knowledge during that time period WOULD BE forgotten if not for g'raha existence.

Considering we know from the story itself that they joined with Midgardsormr to craft a brighter future despite not knowing if their plan worked or not, I’m gonna say you didn’t actually read the story.

“let’s make sure others don’t have to suffer, using the knowledge and information we fought to obtain”. By your logic here, this also applicable to the Ancients lol. They don't want their friends to suffer eternally inside zodiark and they want to ensure the future generation to not suffer. So what's the difference except for the moral dilemma of sacrificing other creatures?

How are they helping the next generation by sacrificing it? Once again, we’re back to using chickens to sacrifice Zodiark!

Because she doesn't spare emet out of kindness?? She needs him, if not for rejoining, then at the very least for him to help the WoL once he regain his memories (though this is a pretty big gamble).

Yeah, that second one is the reason I believe she spared him. We’re on the same page.

Like, she did the sundering knowing the risk of rejoining that could happen. Then on top of that she spare emet, whom she knows will try rejoining should he survive. Like you said before, nothing set in stone (as far as she knew), so all of this are a gamble to her. She gambled that by sparing him, the timeline will be as close as possible to our timeline. Even during our farewell in Elpis, she already said "... or perhaps we will meet again...".

Right, she recognized the possibility that the timelines would converge. This matches with Emets comment on Venat “leaving room for this outcome” which portrays her as someone willing to be flexible and adjust her plan. Onto the the rest; the issue I believe that Venat faced was that after the Sundering and after Hydaelyns inevitable death, there would exist no Unsundered to possibly assist those sent to Ultima Thule. While this wasn’t absolutely necessary or needed, having Emet or Hythlo join those sent to fight Meteion would be a clear benefit, but not absolutely and thus worth leaving to chance (or in other words “leaving room for this outcome”). So that explains why she left a gap that only Emet could see, as Hyth would be in Zodiark and thus he’s the only one left with knowledge of Meteion and the events of Elpis. What she didn’t plan on was Lahabrea to “happen to be nearby” with Elidibus and for all three to work together.

I don't get it, you yourself said the characters are not perfect nor black and white, so why it's so hard to acknowledge that she did the sundering and sparing emet selch knowing that it'll most likely lead to rejoinings? After all, the sundering isn't less worse than rejoining, and she already bloodied her hand at that point.

Because I just don’t think that was her intention. It doesn’t match her statements both in Elpis and afterwards, and it doesn’t make sense given her actions previously. If her intent was to follow the description of events we gave her, then she wouldn’t just need Emet to be spared, but Lahabrea and Elidibus too. Not only that, but her plan would fail from the start if they didn’t manage to escape, which again given it was described by Yoshi P as a gamble it would mean this plan is reliant on a gamble and two coincidences just to get off the ground. On top of that, her later efforts to halt the Rejoinings would constantly run the risk of splitting the timeline, which again would mean failure. Thus, with all of this in mind, I think there’s lot of chances for failure in that plan, a plan that also goes against her stated beliefs, and thus I don’t personally think it makes sense to believe that was her intention. The description I’m arguing for doesn’t run into these problems and remains consistent with both her decisions and stated beliefs.

wow I didn't know the second sentence were spoken by someone else, not by Yoshida....

Kozh… you aren’t seriously arguing that the statement “she definitely made sure the timeline played out that way” is the same as “this is another interpretation”, an interpretation he explicitly says he doesn’t hold or agree with. You aren’t seriously pretending that’s what that says right?

Oh yeah, forgot to mention. About the "needless suffering" I mention on my last post, your take on it is 100% not what I meant , at all. This is probably a matter of miscommunication, so I'll let it slide for now.

How magnanimous of you, O Great Kozh.

[Lyth]

It's worth noting that the official Live Letter recap thread is up on the forums for your perusal.

Q: I don’t really understand why the Warrior of Light messing around in Elpis didn’t create any alternate timelines. Can you explain what happened?

（03:18:39）

A: First of all, we’ve left that part up to interpretation.

With that said, my personal interpretation is that the past and present were always the part of the same timeline. Although there was still a possibility for the timelines to diverge, the Warrior of Light was unwittingly acting in accordance with Venat’s plans, which unified the past and present. Another interpretation might be that Venat worked really hard behind the scenes to ensure that the timeline wouldn’t go awry.

Seeing how Argos took to us on our first meeting, I’d say that proves that the past and present were already unified.

It's a bit of an unusual answer, given that he offers you the choice of two interpretations, and then proceeds to give you hard evidence why one is correct and the other isn't.

[Veloran]

the issue I believe that Venat faced was that after the Sundering and after Hydaelyns inevitable death, there would exist no Unsundered to possibly assist those sent to Ultima Thule.

Or she could just have... Not pointlessly killed herself? You'd think the sundering ability would be pretty useful against a being that's already so aether-thin that it's in danger of dissipation entirely. And if some Unsundered are really so important to the conflict maybe she shouldn't have sundered everyone to begin with?

So that explains why she left a gap that only Emet could see, as Hyth would be in Zodiark and thus he’s the only one left with knowledge of Meteion and the events of Elpis. What she didn’t plan on was Lahabrea to “happen to be nearby” with Elidibus and for all three to work together.

As it happens, we don't actually know if WoL even told Venat if Lahabrea and Elidibus were Unsundered. We know WoL told them that Emet formed the Ascians and went into quite a bit of detail about what went down in Amaurot, but even if Lahabrea and Elidibus were mentioned the existence of the sundered Ascians already means that they could have been sundered and raised back to their seats anyway.

Q: I don’t really understand why the Warrior of Light messing around in Elpis didn’t create any alternate timelines. Can you explain what happened?

A: First of all, we’ve left that part up to interpretation.

With that said, my personal interpretation is that the past and present were always the part of the same timeline. Although there was still a possibility for the timelines to diverge, the Warrior of Light was unwittingly acting in accordance with Venat’s plans, which unified the past and present. Another interpretation might be that Venat worked really hard behind the scenes to ensure that the timeline wouldn’t go awry.

Seeing how Argos took to us on our first meeting, I’d say that proves that the past and present were already unified.

There are a few things to note in this question. First, obviously, it's about the nature of time travel and why Elpis didn't pull a ShB. And the first response he gives to that is that it's open to interpretation as to whether or not it even did. Next, he says that his interpretation is that this was always one timeline/timeloop, that even if it was possible for a timeline divergence things worked out in such a way that it didn't happen. He also adds that maybe Venat worked to ensure the timeline didn't go wack.

So clearly, in terms of the question being asked, this is a very vague and noncommittal answer. He's not really answering why exactly there wasn't a split or if everything was predestined. However within this answer he does reveal something very definite - That Venat absolutely wanted for the timeline to remain the same as the one WoL came from. She planned for WoL to act in accordance with her, with the intent to unify the past and present, and may have worked very hard behind the scenes to ensure everything lined up. Whether or not this was directly a result of her actions or was simply up to fate is left to interpretation, but not her desire.

[Erendis]

He also adds that maybe Venat worked to ensure the timeline didn't go wack.

So acording to Yoshida she just arbitrarily decided to make sure that we exist and blindly rejected any other posibilities even though she had no idea if we can win or no?

[Lyth]

????

We know that we didn't change the timeline because nothing has changed in the present. That's why it's implicit in the question. You can certainly write up alternate scenarios yourself in which the outcome could have theoretically been different i.e. 'What if Kairos didn't activate?', and people have apparently explored these in fan works.

The question itself is about the structure of the time loop. Is it what we would describe as a 'Stable Time Loop', or did the story actually play out twice, with the second iteration of events being identical to the first? The reason why Argos supports this being a 'Stable Time Loop' is because he shouldn't trust you yet if this is your first meeting. If you set that aside, it is possible that on a second pass events either happened to play out the same by coincidence, or did so because Venat ensured that the timelines didn't have any discrepancies before you arrived back in the present.

[EaraGrace]

Or she could just have... Not pointlessly killed herself? You'd think the sundering ability would be pretty useful against a being that's already so aether-thin that it's in danger of dissipation entirely. And if some Unsundered are really so important to the conflict maybe she shouldn't have sundered everyone to begin with?

I think sundering the Aether of a being that is already aetherically thin wouldn’t be the most effective attack, especially when you consider she’s already a hive mind made up of different Meteions.

And I fail to see an alternative that allows for the lessening of the aetheric density of the Ancients and the imprisonment of Zodiark. We can loop back to previous discussions if you want, but the point stands that if you view the Sundering as necessary then there’s not much in alternatives.

As it happens, we don't actually know if WoL even told Venat if Lahabrea and Elidibus were Unsundered. We know WoL told them that Emet formed the Ascians and went into quite a bit of detail about what went down in Amaurot, but even if Lahabrea and Elidibus were mentioned the existence of the sundered Ascians already means that they could have been sundered and raised back to their seats anyway.

Very true that we don’t know exactly what was said. We have the vague image of Lahabrea shown though, which gives some credence to the idea that he was mentioned. And Elidibus was instrumental in getting us to Elpis so there’s reason to think he’s mentioned as well.

Ultimately though, there exists two possibilities, one where we mention at least one other Unsundered and one where only Emet is mentioned.

If it’s the latter, then Venat would indeed not know about Lahabrea or Elidibus and their role in things. But, it’s also true then that she wouldn’t understand the circumstances or events that give rise to the Rejoinings, and thus would have no idea other than that Emet and the Ascians do something to cause Calamities. In that case, and if we assume she’s deliberately trying to allow the Rejoinings to happen, then it would be incredibly counterproductive to raise WoL or grant blessings to people or even help survivors. After all any intervention may split the timeline and cause her plan to fail and she would lack any knowledge of what to do. So in that case I don’t think her actions match with the suggested plan.

If it’s the former however, then we run into the issues I mentioned above.

There are a few things to note in this question. First, obviously, it's about the nature of time travel and why Elpis didn't pull a ShB. And the first response he gives to that is that it's open to interpretation as to whether or not it even did. Next, he says that his interpretation is that this was always one timeline/timeloop, that even if it was possible for a timeline divergence things worked out in such a way that it didn't happen. He also adds that maybe Venat worked to ensure the timeline didn't go wack.

Except he distinguishes between those two as different interpretations. The timeline being the same regardless and Venat working hard to maintain things are separate conceptions of what happened, with him believing the former and not the latter.

So acording to Yoshida she just arbitrarily decided to make sure that we exist and blindly rejected any other posibilities even though she had no idea if we can win or no?

This part of the discussion is over whether that’s the case or not. I suggest you read the full response Yoshi P gave to understand what was said. Here’s a transcript from the Reddit discord.

Q: I don’t really understand why the Warrior of Light messing around in Elpis didn’t create any alternate timelines. What happened?

A: Well, I think the most important thing is that you can come up with your own theories for this one. In my personal interpretation however is that the timelines were always the same. Another interpretation you can have is that maybe Venat worked really hard behind the scenes to ensure the timeline didn’t go awry. Therefore the Warrior of Light was always acting in accordance with this plan of Venat so the timeline that we are aware of didn’t change when we went back to the affected. I personally think that when we went to Mare Lamentorium and we first met Argos and Argos really took to us when we were able to ride it, that's basically the proof that at that point, the timeline is going accordingly. We are adding all these stuff to New Game+ in 6.1 so if you’re interested in this I suggest you replay it and think about these questions when you’re playing it.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The fact yoshi p doesnt even know goes to show how convoluted the plot is ;p

[MikkoAkure]

The fact yoshi p doesnt even know goes to show how convoluted the plot is ;p

Welcome to Final Fantasy.

Still a less convoluted plot than the Fabula Nova Crystallis series.

[EaraGrace]

The fact yoshi p doesnt even know goes to show how convoluted the plot is ;p

Yknow, I think we both know why he answered that way, and it’s certainly not because he doesn't understand the plot.