What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Atelier-Bagur]

Alright so from reading some posts here I do indeed have gotten some parts or interpretations wrong; especially regarding Venat confronting the Convocation. For that I apologize. However I did went back and looked at certain cutscenes to make sure I'm not overlooking anything and this is what I found regarding the arguments against Venat's decisions. This is dialogue that happens right after the WoL and her escape Ktsis Hyperboreia:

"With Meteion free to pursue her designs, 'tis only a matter of time until the Final Days are upon us. In spite of this, we cannot allow the report that set this calamity in motion to become common knowledge. Were the masses to learn the fates of the other stars, I fear the situation would spiral out of our control. I must carefully consider who can be trusted, and bring them into the fold. Ordinarily, I wouldnt hesitate to call upon the Fourteen. However, it was the desire for a fair determination that drove Hermes to attempt to erase our memories; were he made aware of his actions, there is no telling whether he would remain a friend or become a foe. Alternately, we might try to alienate him from the Convocation. Yet in doing so, we would deprive ourselves of a brilliant mind who would be invaluable in the crises to come. Quite the dilemma....Which is why I must work independently of the Convocation. Regardless of how we proceed, if we are to permanently avert the Final Days, we must be equal to Hermes's challenge. We must prove that mankind is worthy to exist."

Pretty much explains her thought-process with what to do with the knowledge. There were numerous variables that could happen that would cause the situation to get worse. The Ancients were a sheltered lot who knew only bliss and paradise. For the public to be told of Meteion's report, there's no telling how many people would act and would've caused their creation magicks to spiral out of control due to despair. Granted not everyone would act crazy, we see that in Emet and Hyth, which is why Venat said she had to choose who to tell carefully.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Also afterwards she says this:

"And this hinges, I think, on how we confront the all-consuming despair that accompanies a senseless and seemingly inevitable end. Bewildered and divided, we would perish like the peoples of those celestial ruins. We could not hope to survive the Final Days, much less take the battle to Meteion at her nest. We must find a way to defeat despair. To unite and prepare as many as possible for the struggle ahead."

So yeah she did told people about the situation before the first Final Days happened. But realistically the Ancients would'nt have been strong enough in both heart and mind in their current state (as well as their lack of controlling dynamis) to be able to survive Ultima Thule and confront Meteion. Even if they knew how to create entelechies, it would've been seriously flawed due to the proper lack of understanding suffering and using that as a strength rather than a weakness like Meteion chose. Which is why despite everything, the sundering had to happen. Not only for the people of Etheryis to be able to control and use dynamis but for their own development to eventually find the answer and strength needed to combat the song of Oblivion.

[Kyohei]

All those reasons fail in a logical way when compared to many other things weighting on the balance, PawPaw cited a good lot of them.
She did not tell them, again see to Shadowbringers. No ancient knew, no ascians knew. What you cited is Venat's thought process of "ifs". What she ended up with is a close group of people that summoned Hydaelyn.
Everything about the lack of suffering is from Venat's personal convictions, it's from her lenses only that the story speaks of that, not a broad generality. If we talk about that ancient in Venat's cutscene, compared to the Final days of course their world was blissful. If such a calamity with impending doom were to happen to any world, I'm pretty sure anyone would want their old world back and think of it as the best it ever was. Look at covid and how people just wanted things "back to how they were", and it's not nearly the same level as general destruction brought by the Final days nor close to its horror.
The ancient were as varied as sundered mankind with only a life system in common. We can see with Hermes that they can have deep, even devouring emotions too. It would be very strange for him to be the only one, except he is one that can't deal with it properly and with maturity. So even if they can't manipulate dynamis, they very well can create beings not necessarily flawed. Nothing supports "lack of understanding suffering" other than simply the story giving you this at face value as a way to justify itself and make one look away from inconsistencies.
The ancient not being strong enough in heart and mind fails too as an argument when you have ascians struggling for 12k years bearing the weight to bring back what they promised to their brethren, and on the other side Venat becoming Hydaelyn also is proof they do have what it takes.
All in all, narration fails on a logical level. The substance might not be bad, but it was handled poorly with many flaws and contradictions that leave opening for finding it lacking.

[KizuyaKatogami]

All those reasons fail in a logical way when compared to many other things weighting on the balance, PawPaw cited a good lot of them.
She did not tell them, again see to Shadowbringers. No ancient knew, no ascians knew. What you cited is Venat's thought process of "ifs". What she ended up with is a close group of people that summoned Hydaelyn.
Everything about the lack of suffering is from Venat's personal convictions, it's from her lenses only that the story speaks of that, not a broad generality. If we talk about that ancient in Venat's cutscene, compared to the Final days of course their world was blissful. If such a calamity with impending doom were to happen to any world, I'm pretty sure anyone would want their old world back and think of it as the best it ever was. Look at covid and how people just wanted things "back to how they were", and it's not nearly the same level as general destruction brought by the Final days nor close to its horror.
The ancient were as varied as sundered mankind with only a life system in common. We can see with Hermes that they can have deep, even devouring emotions too. It would be very strange from him to be the only one, except he is one that can't deal with it properly and with maturity. So even if they can't manipulate dynamis, they very well can create beings not necessarily flawed. Nothing supports "lack of understanding suffering" other than simply the story giving you this at face value as a way to justify itself and make one look away from inconsistencies.
The ancient not being strong enough in heart and mind fails too as an argument when you have ascians struggling for 12k years alone to bring back what they promised to their brethren, and on the other side Venat becoming Hydaelyn also is proof they do have what it takes.
All in all, narration fails on a logical level. The substance might not be bad, but it was handled poorly with many flaws and contradictions that leave opening for finding it lacking.

Exactly. Marking the ancients off as just perfect and bliss and knowing no suffering is just wrong. We're shown this in numerous ways.

Also afterwards she says this:

"And this hinges, I think, on how we confront the all-consuming despair that accompanies a senseless and seemingly inevitable end. Bewildered and divided, we would perish like the peoples of those celestial ruins. We could not hope to survive the Final Days, much less take the battle to Meteion at her nest. We must find a way to defeat despair. To unite and prepare as many as possible for the struggle ahead."

So yeah she did told people about the situation before the first Final Days happened. But realistically the Ancients would'nt have been strong enough in both heart and mind in their current state (as well as their lack of controlling dynamis) to be able to survive Ultima Thule and confront Meteion. Even if they knew how to create entelechies, it would've been seriously flawed due to the proper lack of understanding suffering and using that as a strength rather than a weakness like Meteion chose. Which is why despite everything, the sundering had to happen. Not only for the people of Etheryis to be able to control and use dynamis but for their own development to eventually find the answer and strength needed to combat the song of Oblivion.

In regards to Venat's reasoning, she didnt even need to necessarily tell everyone. She could keep it from Hermes and only speak to the convocation and a select trustable few in her own friend group. Should hemes somehow find out...pandemonium exists. The ancients have so many tools at their disposal it isnt even funny. Venat, for all the preaching she does about uniting with her people, about having hope, lost hope in her own people, didnt tell them the truth until it was too late, and then bargained the entire world's future on a single person.The sundering didnt need to happen. What needed to happen was her telling them the truth and them actually uniting as she said, towards a common goal. We see they are able to manipulate dynamis to a degree. They have a facility they could use to hone said powers if given the chance. The fact is they werent given that chance.

[Kyohei]

Exactly. Marking the ancients off as just perfect and bliss and knowing no suffering is just wrong. We're shown this in numerous ways.





In regards to Venat's reasoning, she didnt even need to necessarily tell everyone. She could keep it from Hermes and only speak to the convocation and a select trustable few in her own friend group. Should hemes somehow find out...pandemonium exists. The ancients have so many tools at their disposal it isnt even funny. Venat, for all the preaching she does about uniting with her people, about having hope, lost hope in her own people, didnt tell them the truth until it was too late, and then bargained the entire world's future on a single person.The sundering didnt need to happen. What needed to happen was her telling them the truth and them actually uniting as she said, towards a common goal. We see they are able to manipulate dynamis to a degree. They have a facility they could use to hone said powers if given the chance. The fact is they werent given that chance.

I would add that the representation of the sundered people she saw in Elpis is the WoL, which is by no means a fair one. If, say, she saw Valens instead, do you think she would've went sundering option? Hmmm...
Or for more fairness because Valens is kind of on the other edge of the spectrum, an eorzean suffering outside of Ul'dah's gate. Simply living day to day trying to find how to eat without a care for the broader world because they cannot afford to. I very much doubt such a person would have inspired "hope in sundered". Yet they are the majority while the WoL is one of a kind, who actually died in a previous timeline too.

[PawPaw]

snip

Thanks for providing your quotes. My issue with this, with all of this is that what you just posted is what Venat thinks will happen. It is not objectively what would happen were people made aware of the truth. In the video, Yoshi-P says that everything happens because Venat believes they can't do better. That she believes they cannot stop it at the source. They don't need to go to UT and confront Meteion. We are told that the Ancients themselves are too aether-dense to interact with Dynamis and I accept that; but they are also gods who can create anything. If a Meteion entity can be created by one man then there is zero reason for me to believe, based on the evidence that I have seen in the game, that an entity could not be created that could counter Meteion. And in the meantime, they devise a way to create a shield to protect themselves in the short term. A shield that doesn't require you to sacrifice 50% of your population.

It makes absolutely no sense for me to suddenly suspend my disbelief and accept that the Ancients are now randomly idiots who are incapable of intelligent decisions. Dynamis is not widely known about in their society but it is also not the sole knowledge of one man, had the wider world known of the issue there is no reason to believe that those who did know about it couldn't have tried to find a solution. All they needed to know is what we're told almost immediately upon meeting Hermes and Meteion. That Dynamis is weaker than aether. Not telling them because of Hermes is...so weak. What on earth could he possibly do at that point? With Emet-Selch's memories restored they wouldn't need his knowledge and Venat herself says at one point that she has heard of Dynamis before. Was he going to take on the entire Convocation? Stick him in Pandemonium if you're truly afraid he could be a danger and get on with protecting your world.

Imagine the WoL learning all they do about Zodiark and Meteion and, instead of sharing that knowledge with the Alliance leaders they just lock themselves in the Rising Stones because they don't want to cause a panic. It's dumb, right?

The writers have given us this official reasoning for her actions and inaction and I'm sure they thought that this was a solid resolution. But the reason I continue to question their story choices is that based on what they themselves have shown me in their story up until this point, it makes no sense whatsoever. This is only my opinion but at the end of the day, they are asking me to roll over and accept that this logically preventable event is now to be completely unpreventable just because of one person's subjective opinion. That there is no other way it could have been resolved. In this world where really, almost anything is possible.

[BrokentoothMarch]

How is this still in debate? Objectively speaking, Venat kept critical information that sent the Ancients to certain damnation due to a judgment made on such an egregious show of narcissism that I wouldn't be surprised to find out she goes home everyday to her perfect lover: A mirror.

Whether the ancients could do anything with the information is irrelevant. Whether they ever had enough time or power to stop the Song is irrelevant. Whether they would grow into something flourishing or into the Plenty is completely irrelevant. The point remains Venat condemned her people on a whim and the ultimate price she had to pay was being a goddess. Oh wow. Woe is her. How I pity her divine existence.

[Kyohei]

Imagine the WoL learning all they do about Zodiark and Meteion and, instead of sharing that knowledge with the Alliance leaders they just lock themselves in the Rising Stones because they don't want to cause a panic. It's dumb, right?

The writers have given us this official reasoning for her actions and inaction and I'm sure they thought that this was a solid resolution. But the reason I continue to question their story choices is that based on what they themselves have shown me in their story up until this point, it makes no sense whatsoever. This is only my opinion but at the end of the day, they are asking me to roll over and accept that this logically preventable event is now to be completely unpreventable just because of one person's subjective opinion. That there is no other way it could have been resolved. In this world where really, almost anything is possible.

Very much this and the rest above. One thing though, I'm not entirely sure they themselves think it's that solid given how hard it was for Yoshida to answer and how cornered he felt during the LL..to the point of saying we shouldn't look at the story that much. That might just be how it appeared to me though.

[PawPaw]

due to a judgment made on such an egregious show of narcissism that I wouldn't be surprised to find out she goes home everyday to her perfect lover: A mirror.

Oh man, this made me genuinely belly laugh, thank you

[PawPaw]

Very much this and the rest above. One thing though, I'm not entirely sure they themselves think it's that solid given how hard it was for Yoshida to answer and how cornered he felt during the LL..to the point of saying we shouldn't look at the story that much. That might just be how it appeared to me though.

Yeah, I got that impression as well. I also wonder if they had some plan to wrap up any of these questions we have somehow with the raids in the interim patches but I admit I'm having to reach quite a bit to see how it could happen. I'm just baffled.