Will Beastmaster appear in any Endwalker content patches?

[BrokentoothMarch]

It's sad that people are willing to defend the current state of BLU and even more sad that the justification thereof is purely because they don't want it to fit in one of the three roles, an archaic system set by WoW that FFXIV really should have never picked up. Of all the things it abandoned from FFXI (rightfully so, mind, given the disaster of 1.0), it should not have abandoned class identity for the sake of such pale mimicry for a system that, in of itself, existed for the sake of streamlining. Though at least WoW used this streamline to create actual classes.

WHM? Literally weaker AST. DRK? A mockery of a tank. RPR? What DRK should have been. BRD? In name only. It's just Archer+ and I refuse to be fooled.

The streamlined three-role system exists solely to ease homogenization of every job for some esoteric and obscure reason Yoshi and his team refuse to divulge and the fact that BLU is so married to it's identity is what relegated it to the Limited Job section. This is not a problem with BLU. This isn't even a problem with Limited Jobs, technically. It's a problem with the current role system.

Tell me: If Green Mage were to be considered, where would it fit? Can't heal, so not there. But it's more DoT and status focused, which Yoshi has expressed allergies to, so it can't be a DPS. Tank? Green Mage? See you at the comedy club. So just like that, based on the self-inflicted system we have, GRM can never earn the right to exist. BST and PUP? If BLU is any indication, they're condemned to the same fate as GRM or, even worse, have their 'slot' consumed to be some side-game content that rarely sees use in later patches no matter what these 'loyalists', for lack of better term, will have you believe. See, that's what bothers me about their case. "At least we get it as a limited job. It's more than nothin!" Incorrect. It's LESS than nothing. Because while there was ever errant hope we'd get the job, instead it already exists in a wretched state. We quite literally come out of this scenario with less than nothing. How anyone can think they can make me believe seeing some crippled version of a job I loved in previous games as a good thing is beyond me.

I don't know when this began, but the job and role system of FFXIV is inherently broken and with every new job, it shows it's decay that much more and BLU is the jewel of what awaits jobs that will not bend to this, and I stress, self-inflicted and nonsensical system. One that only DPS', though only by a margin, can benefit from.

Anyways, onto the main topic: If BST is to appear, it'll either be gutted into SMN but physical or be limited. smol indie company. pls enjoy.

[Shurrikhan]

It's sad that people are willing to defend the current state of BLU and even more sad that the justification thereof is purely because they don't want it to fit in one of the three roles, an archaic system set by WoW that FFXIV really should have never picked up. Of all the things it abandoned from FFXI (rightfully so, mind, given the disaster of 1.0)...

Odd that you'd blame WoW, which had a far softer approach to (greater hybridity in) roles than earlier MMOs and still a considerably softer/more flexible approach to role capacities in all but 10+ man raids, let alone immediately before going after XI and 1.0's, whose takes on roles were likewise much more flexible (with 1.0's "tanks" varying having very distinct places in party play between brawlers, vanguard/trappers, and squad leaders).
__________________________

That said, I agree wholly that roles should refer to what we do (which would be neither permanent nor mutually exclusive), rather than what we are, and jobs should be built first and foremost around job identity. I feel that matchmaking's requirements for X of each job type should be replaced with a minimum of X of given capacities, where one could as easily make up for all but burst mitigation with kiting (since, if given sufficient enmity a al Shadewalker or the like, kiting is still taking). And if we did that, a real BLU could walk right in.

NIN, BRD, MCH, SMN oddball speedrun groups? Bring em on. No fear double-tank dungeons, with tanks having more control over their mitigation (rather than sacrificing so much offensive throughput for absurd levels of passive mitigation)? Sure; I'd love to have actually nuanced tank-swaps rather than just those forced by Vulnerability debuffs. DRK, NIN, WHM, BLM for maximum shadow-dancing (each Flare or Holy giving opportunities for shadow users) and evasion? Hell yeah. But that required job identity and job identity requires both undermechanical depth (our content actually doing things, of interest, frequently) and a new approach to roles.

I don't think that'll happen, nor do I think we need to go so far to get a BST that's still miles more fun than almost any existing job, but I do think the game would be hugely improved in the long term by changing to that kind of design paradigm.

[BrokentoothMarch]

Odd that you'd blame WoW, which had a far softer approach to (greater hybridity in) roles than earlier MMOs and still a considerably softer/more flexible approach to role capacities in all but 10+ man raids, let alone immediately before going after XI and 1.0's, whose takes on roles were likewise much more flexible (with 1.0's "tanks" varying having very distinct places in party play between brawlers, vanguard/trappers, and squad leaders).

To be fair, I did bury it in my rant, so I'll clarify on this bit: WoW did this in an effort to streamline general roles so they could work within this framework and expand on it. It essentially offered the bones of any future class to begin from and expand from there whereas FFXIV feels like those roles are becoming more and more all-consuming of the job's within them. WoW actually made proper use of this system whereas it sometimes feels like it's used as a lazy crutch by FFXIV.

The game therefore should have never picked it up if they intended to use this framework as a replacement for job variety.

[Razhius]

I mean I like ff14's version of summoner (4.x-6.x) so I wouldn't mind them doing a ff14 version of beast master. If they make it limited it would allow them to do more cool stuff but if they add it as a non-limited I'm sure they could make it fun still.

I love the ff14 summoner too, especially now, and the combat system too.

The thing is beastmaster wont work in ff14 because all monsters except bosses are trash mobs, that die in a few hits.

BST worked in ffxi coz you would stack up on charisma, charm a mob that was tough or very tough (basically can kill you in a few hit) and fight even tougher mobs as a duo. Then re-equip your charm gear when it's time to recharm same or a new mob to fight with you. BST also had a 2hr panic ability in case the charm failed to make sure it succeeds and makes the charm last longer.

This wont work in ff14. The design philosophy is completely different.

[BrokentoothMarch]

I love the ff14 summoner too, especially now, and the combat system too.

The thing is beastmaster wont work in ff14 because all monsters except bosses are trash mobs, that die in a few hits.

BST worked in ffxi coz you would stack up on charisma, charm a mob that was tough or very tough (basically can kill you in a few hit) and fight even tougher mobs as a duo. Then re-equip your charm gear when it's time to recharm same or a new mob to fight with you. BST also had a 2hr panic ability in case the charm failed to make sure it succeeds and makes the charm last longer.

This wont work in ff14. The design philosophy is completely different.

And why is this a good thing? Mind, I don't want to go back to the days where killing stuff in the overworld is the only way to progress, as Eureka is a stark reminder how "Fun" that can be, but why does everything in the overworld, including monsters, feel so worthless? Sometimes it's more like a hub where I join missions. I've actually been investing in BLU and it really made bare how horrendously designed the overworld and monsters are.

Also, I'm sorry, but if you love SMN, then just play BLM. It honestly feels like SMN except at least you get to push more buttons.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

BST and PUP? If BLU is any indication, they're condemned to the same fate as GRM or, even worse, have their 'slot' consumed to be some side-game content that rarely sees use in later patches no matter what these 'loyalists', for lack of better term, will have you believe. See, that's what bothers me about their case. "At least we get it as a limited job. It's more than nothin!" Incorrect. It's LESS than nothing. Because while there was ever errant hope we'd get the job, instead it already exists in a wretched state. We quite literally come out of this scenario with less than nothing. How anyone can think they can make me believe seeing some crippled version of a job I loved in previous games as a good thing is beyond me.

With BLU as is, I have a job that I regularly play in content (Min-ilvl, No Echo runs for fun or 're-progging' sprouts through the fights; all BLU raids), which offers a unique experience not otherwise present in the game (or rather, several such experiences, because of the modular kit). That is much better than nothing from my perspective. I don't really care about making you, or anyone else who doesn't regularly engage in the circumstances where BLU shines, think it's a good thing. It's a good thing to me, and I just have to worry about making my voice loud enough that Square Enix doesn't turn BLU into a by-the-numbers ranged magical DPS.

Given that your main gripe seems to be with the with holy-trinity, I'm not sure what else to say. I'm not a fan of the trinity either, seeing as my favorite role is pure support or flex-support. RDM in FF11 was such an amazing kit that it kept me playing the game despite some real gripes with its underlying structure; RDM in FF14 is something I'll play casually in roulettes on a whim. However, I made peace with FF14's RDM a long time ago, because the odds of the devs tossing out the trinity are winning-a-lottery-jackpot low. When I want to play a kit-focused game where every job has a dedicated personal identity, I resub to FF11.

To summarize my stance again: I'm defending BLU's current situation not because I think it's fine. I agree, for example, with a lot of the direction Shurrikhan wants to take the job's design (a lot of which could be implemented whether BLU is limited or not). I'm defending Limited-BLU because the most likely alternative, to an overwhelming degree, is BLU being mutilated to fit into the "DPS" role.

[Razhius]

@Brokentoothmarch

I love the aesthetics more than the rotation of SMN. I meant I love the combat system of ffxiv as a whole.

Also I wasn't implying that mobs being trash in the over world was a good or bad thing. Just saying that's the design in ffxiv.

Yes in ffxi the only way to level was fighting mobs in parties for hours..

I did 10yrs in ffxi, and played in the 75 cap era. It was tough. But also the mindset and philosophy of gaming were different. The term "endgame" didn't exist. The whole game from 1 -75 was the endgame coz it was focusing on the journey, not rushing you to cap level so you can finally do the "real" things.

I'm kinda going off topic though. The argument though is still, that BST, unless they make a specific area for "taming" mobs, will just not work in ffxiv, kind like BLu has the carnivale.

[Rymi64]

@Brokentoothmarch

I love the aesthetics more than the rotation of SMN. I meant I love the combat system of ffxiv as a whole.

Also I wasn't implying that mobs being trash in the over world was a good or bad thing. Just saying that's the design in ffxiv.

Yes in ffxi the only way to level was fighting mobs in parties for hours..

I did 10yrs in ffxi, and played in the 75 cap era. It was tough. But also the mindset and philosophy of gaming were different. The term "endgame" didn't exist. The whole game from 1 -75 was the endgame coz it was focusing on the journey, not rushing you to cap level so you can finally do the "real" things.

I'm kinda going off topic though. The argument though is still, that BST, unless they make a specific area for "taming" mobs, will just not work in ffxiv, kind like BLu has the carnivale.

I mean they could do beast master, it'd just be ff14s version of it. They could make it by fusing all the pet stuff they use now like how the avatar attacks and using the demi pet system but more permanent. Have different beasts for the different attacks, could even make it so you can use other mobs models by doing a specific thing like egi glams.

[BrokentoothMarch]

To summarize my stance again: I'm defending BLU's current situation not because I think it's fine. I agree, for example, with a lot of the direction Shurrikhan wants to take the job's design (a lot of which could be implemented whether BLU is limited or not). I'm defending Limited-BLU because the most likely alternative, to an overwhelming degree, is BLU being mutilated to fit into the "DPS" role.

I can see eye-to-eye on this perspective, even if it really feels weirdly defeatist when this game constantly boasts having a dev team that listens. A statement that's becoming less true with every expansion, it feels.

And aye. You've identified my main issue being the Trinity and, as of late, many an issue being solved with just injecting legalized bots (Trusts). Again, while not wanting to return to the vicious nature of some older MMOs, I dread the single player and dismissive direction this game has been taking as of late and it's more pent up frustration that has me spilling animosity on the forums now.

The main difference between us seems to be that you finally came to terms with what's likely our permanent reality and I'm still throwing a tantrum to get it out of my system. It's a shame that's it our responsibility to compromise and is still often the precursor to decay of an otherwise great game, but again. You're right. There's not really much we can do except accept or leave.

[MellowMink]

I love the ff14 summoner too, especially now, and the combat system too.

The thing is beastmaster wont work in ff14 because all monsters except bosses are trash mobs, that die in a few hits.

BST worked in ffxi coz you would stack up on charisma, charm a mob that was tough or very tough (basically can kill you in a few hit) and fight even tougher mobs as a duo. Then re-equip your charm gear when it's time to recharm same or a new mob to fight with you. BST also had a 2hr panic ability in case the charm failed to make sure it succeeds and makes the charm last longer.

This wont work in ff14. The design philosophy is completely different.

They could expand the current companion system and have the tamed monsters level up.