Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Deceptus]

You're asking for healers to get punished for things they often have no control over.

We are in a way already. We're punished by greedy dps who refuse to do mechanics.

"Healer Adjust" has existed for a while now.

[Izar_Chillen]

We are in a way already. We're punished by greedy dps who refuse to do mechanics.

"Healer Adjust" has existed for a while now.

Only in PUG content

That crappy behaviour doesn't exists in serious groups . If DPS causes, avoidable , excess damage that needs to be healed when normally it isnt needed , causing the "healers to adjust" they wont last long in a decent static especially when you get to stages were every GCD counts

[Rilifane]

We are in a way already. We're punished by greedy dps who refuse to do mechanics.

"Healer Adjust" has existed for a while now.

I can't remember a time when I really encountered this to be honest.
Perhaps it's a DC thing but I've never had anyone tell me in any way to adjust, to just heal through it etc. when it was avoidable. On the contrary, I usually saw people dodging things that barely tickled and losing dps over it and I said they can just eat it because I have more than enough free heals.
Sometimes people eat extra because they miscalculcated, it happens but I can't remember ever getting the feeling it was an intentional "Why dodge? The healer is going to heal it, I don't care" because the way they generally played simply suggested otherwise. There exist strats (like uptime football on e6s or all stack on e7s adds) that go for higher uptime at the cost of higher damage taken but they weren't common until the end of the tier when everyone was overgeared and it only took an oGCD from each healer to heal it.
Tank LB strats or invuln cheesing entire mechanics are much more popular.
What I did sometimes encounter in log run parties were tanks that used their mitigation/ invuln to eat mechanics for better uptime and thus took more damage on autos and tankbusters, forcing healers to heal more. But when I spoke up about it and said that a log run party is supposed to be for everyone and that would include healers, others usually chimed in and said that griefing others in log runs is a no-go and the tanks either stopped it or left.

[SeverianLyonesse]

I don't know how often you play AST, or if you even do, but there hasn't been so much joy over various changes that affected or introduced RNG in AST in EW. Also, having to add procs into a job that already is the busiest with the cards ? Doesn't make sense. If anything, I would add a burst (which AST lacks) on a longish CD.

For SCH, it would be great just to have bane back ( if I recall the skill that allowed us to spread dots correctly).

Aside from that, I do like your ideas to keep some different flavour between the jobs, I don't see that it would add substantially more complexity at all though, it's rather embarrassing that these minor changes are so difficult to discuss with SE.
in all the healers with the cards? So

Never played it. I admit to coming up with the ideas on the spot. The point isn't exactly what changes are made, just that each healer should have a little DPS mini-game they can be playing like all the other jobs.

Though imo a damage RNG mini-game would not hurt AST, or any other healer for that matter. The point isn't to punish the player for DPSing poorly... It's just to give them a little more variety in their attack style. For all I care these healer combos could have negligible DPS gain...they mostly just need to exist for the sake of player engagement.

Also I think WHM's glare is a good direction to take healers. The stun doesn't do too much, but it adds just a little flavor and agency to make the job more interesting. Like I think gravity should inflict the "heavy" status...which would then require some thought as to how/when to use it (i.e. it probably would be great for trial trash mobs, but would need to be judiciously used for dungeon mobs).

[IDontPetLalas]

Never played it. I admit to coming up with the ideas on the spot. The point isn't exactly what changes are made, just that each healer should have a little DPS mini-game they can be playing like all the other jobs.

Though imo a damage RNG mini-game would not hurt AST, or any other healer for that matter. The point isn't to punish the player for DPSing poorly... It's just to give them a little more variety in their attack style. For all I care these healer combos could have negligible DPS gain...they mostly just need to exist for the sake of player engagement.

Also I think WHM's glare is a good direction to take healers. The stun doesn't do too much, but it adds just a little flavor and agency to make the job more interesting. Like I think gravity should inflict the "heavy" status...which would then require some thought as to how/when to use it (i.e. it probably would be great for trial trash mobs, but would need to be judiciously used for dungeon mobs).

Thank you for clarifying, I can see that a lot of people are trying to comp up with improvements, which really is appreciated. for one thing, i do like the ide of adding "heavY', i've seen that before, don"t know why the have never added that.

However, unfortunately if i take one of your comments " For all I care these healer combos could have negligible DPS gain...they mostly just need to exist for the sake of player engagement." - if i apply that to AST again, one of the complaints relates to button bloat and unnecessary it's being busy just to be...busy. So adding an extra button that doesn't really do much? Especially if it's added on a level 90 character? No, especially as healers have so few DPS options and likely will remain with few options- they should be well thought out.

In addition, that idea of punishing someone for DPS? i don't know what you mean exactly, if it's a distraction, well that comes down to design - almost no one intends a complex DPS rotation as per DPS jobs ( I certainly don't). If it comes down to other player harassing a healer? that is simply not allowed, period, within the TOS, again, not a factor.

[SeverianLyonesse]

*snip*

I acknowledge that some people say it's busywork, but then that's all the tank jobs too and they still have simple mini-games to play in their DPS rotations. Granted, what their 1-2-3 combos offer is mostly aesthetic and a couple different buttons, but I posit that you're just viewing it from the opposite angle I am. I am *not* saying that what a lot of people want or propose will have much if any objective improvement on how healers actually play. But they will (a) better distinguish the job fantasy, which in itself does so much for player engagement and enjoyment. And, far more importantly, (b) it wouldn't be spamming "1" 92 percent of the time. The bar really is that low, and I agree with you that having thought out abilities is preferable...but at this point they don't even need to be thought out much at all to be better than what we have.

Also, I forgot to address in previous, but while I don't mind the idea of AST having a burst instead, I am torn on the idea of giving healers burst phases because then that creates a complication of being expected to sync with the party's burst phases, when to my mind healers want the *option* to weave mini-bursts more than they want big bangy spells. But if any healer did get a big bangy explosion, AST has to be the one. It just has to.

As for punishment, typically the way combos work in the DPS and tank classes is they have a specific order that they need to be played, otherwise they do minimal damage and you are effectively punished for missing your proper combos. Like, taking my experience for tanks, if you don't follow through to the 3rd ability of your 1-2-3, you don't get your gauge/stacks for the other half of your abilities. You literally do not get to do the weighty, fun parts of your dps rotation if you mess up your basic combos. I don't think healers need that degree of disparity between hitting their 1-2(;3), or being forced to interrupt with a heal and just doing 1-1--it would be *nice* if they got extra bonuses rewards they could spend on DPS if they do their basic combos correctly, but I acknowledge that would require a LOT of extra balancing (which could eventually happen down the line). What I am advocating for is literally just the quick and dirty easy fix to get the jobs mostly there, which could then be refined and built out. But I especially think that sort of logic would apply to AST if they are trying to weave in and out of card RNG.

Another idea I just had: Make SGE's second combo ability a rapid-click charge, where the more clicks you do the more pew-pews you get. That would be an easy one-button fix and keep players very engaged.

[IDontPetLalas]

I acknowledge that some people say it's busywork, but then that's all the tank jobs too and they still have simple mini-games to play in their DPS rotations. Granted, what their 1-2-3 combos offer is mostly aesthetic and a couple different buttons, but I posit that you're just viewing it from the opposite angle I am. I am *not* saying that what a lot of people want or propose will have much if any objective improvement on how healers actually play. But they will (a) better distinguish the job fantasy, which in itself does so much for player engagement and enjoyment. And, far more importantly, (b) it wouldn't be spamming "1" 92 percent of the time. The bar really is that low, and I agree with you that having thought out abilities is preferable...but at this point they don't even need to be thought out much at all to be better than what we have.

Also, I forgot to address in previous, but while I don't mind the idea of AST having a burst instead, I am torn on the idea of giving healers burst phases because then that creates a complication of being expected to sync with the party's burst phases, when to my mind healers want the *option* to weave mini-bursts more than they want big bangy spells. But if any healer did get a big bangy explosion, AST has to be the one. It just has to.

As for punishment, typically the way combos work in the DPS and tank classes is they have a specific order that they need to be played, otherwise they do minimal damage and you are effectively punished for missing your proper combos. Like, taking my experience for tanks, if you don't follow through to the 3rd ability of your 1-2-3, you don't get your gauge/stacks for the other half of your abilities. You literally do not get to do the weighty, fun parts of your dps rotation if you mess up your basic combos. I don't think healers need that degree of disparity between hitting their 1-2(;3), or being forced to interrupt with a heal and just doing 1-1--it would be *nice* if they got extra bonuses rewards they could spend on DPS if they do their basic combos correctly, but I acknowledge that would require a LOT of extra balancing (which could eventually happen down the line). What I am advocating for is literally just the quick and dirty easy fix to get the jobs mostly there, which could then be refined and built out. But I especially think that sort of logic would apply to AST if they are trying to weave in and out of card RNG.

Another idea I just had: Make SGE's second combo ability a rapid-click charge, where the more clicks you do the more pew-pews you get. That would be an easy one-button fix and keep players very engaged.

Thanks, I can see where you're coming from, a lot of it makes sense.

[Shurrikhan]

Another idea I just had: Make SGE's second combo ability a rapid-click charge, where the more clicks you do the more pew-pews you get. That would be an easy one-button fix and keep players very engaged.

Obvious concerns for ping aside, any sort of variation like this would be much appreciated.

To be clear, I don't consider 1-2-3 combos as offering enough to warrant their button-cost, but less rigid/thoughtless means of offering "[woven] mini-bursts" would be a huge boon for healer gameplay.

[Nethereal]

Obvious concerns for ping aside, any sort of variation like this would be much appreciated.

To be clear, I don't consider 1-2-3 combos as offering enough to warrant their button-cost, but less rigid/thoughtless means of offering "[woven] mini-bursts" would be a huge boon for healer gameplay.

Hmmm.

Similar to the way gnashing fang works? Sprinkle some dancer in there, your heals turn into damage buttons as to not increase button bloat.
6 GCDs of damage skills like the way Egi assaults work whether you break the combo or not.

[Shurrikhan]

Hmmm.

Similar to the way gnashing fang works? Sprinkle some dancer in there, your heals turn into damage buttons as to not increase button bloat.
6 GCDs of damage skills like the way Egi assaults work whether you break the combo or not.

The particulars of how we include those downtime abilities don't especially matter beyond their being, on the whole, diverse, cohesive, and to some degree fitting for their kits.

At present, the one-button spam of healer downtime gives two further issues beyond its obvious monotony: they have no particular fit to/with their job surrounding kits and those tools they have no distinction from those of other healer kits. They all play equally --(and) homogeneously-- independently and dully.