WHM Desperately Needs An Overhaul

[Shurrikhan]

Because that's worked so well so far hasn't it? I sure don't miss Selene's old effects at all, her implementation is to heal after all. I'm sure no one liked the old card system for AST either. It was just DPS buffs, Bole/Spire/Ewer totally didn't have different effects at all. I have seen the light.....
....and it's BORING.

That has nothing. Whatsoever. To do with button efficiency.

Capacities are not buttons. Functions are not buttons. Actions need not each take a separate button.

Selene's Skill Speed and Spell Speed (later, Attack Speed) buffs were already auto-castable and could have easily been consolidated or outright made into auras because they are capacities, not buttons.

Balance, Bowl, Spear, Arrow, Ewer, and Spire only ever used a single button.

Button bloat has nothing to do with available functions or capacities. It has. Only. To do with taking more buttons than is needed to allow for a given capacity or function. It's not that complicated.

And how are Solace and Rapture any different? They were by no means necessary at all. They could have simply made Lilies generate as they currently do and just made Cure 2 and Medica instant, free cast spells while you had a Lily but they added Solace and Rapture for whatever reason. So are you going to advocate for their removal?

So long as you never wanted to save even a single charge of Lily for mobility and/or weave space (which seems unlikely in many a Savage fight), sure, you could remove the ability to control when you gain those benefits.

You could also, though, just have Lilies auto-complete (and make MP-free) healing casts that would have otherwise been interrupted by movement or damage taken such that the mobility-holding capacity can actually be used for mobility. No loss of function or capacity, but no buttons required.

Or reduce the cast times of WHM healing spells by ~.6s across the board to give some weave space and then turn it into a Swiftcast-type action that uses only one button for every possible healing function it may be applied to. One button, every sub-function covered.

And couldn't you just add 2 charges of Lucid Dreaming?

???

Charges don't increase uses per minute. You'd get only one extra Lucid Dreaming per fight. And if you're concerned about button bloat, why the hell would you want Lucid Dreaming at all? Is getting PKed shortly after a Lucid Dreaming and therefore having far less MP when raised... so exciting as to be worth a button? Unless we know when we're going to die and can therefore bank Lucid for it, there's no added function or capacity, only an added button -- which, yes, makes it bloat.

Astrodyne, moreover, is not some Lucid Dreaming-equivalent; it's a self-buff (like PoM, but weaker and more thematically tied-in) of up to three types and if it so offends you that after using up Speed and Damage that they next went for Mana, change the Mana to Crit and think no more on it.

______________

To reiterate one last time: Whether something is bloated or not depends on whether the implementation takes up more buttons than is necessary to achieve its target capacity and/or function. If something offers no capacity or function but requires a button, it is inherently bloated; most skills, however, at least offer something, but many could do all that (or better) without using so many buttons.

It has nothing directly to do total button count alone. A given design for WHM can still be bloated even if WHM currently has fewer buttons than AST or SCH. That AST and SCH are bloated does not excuse button bloat (needlessly inefficient design) for WHM.

[Silver-Strider]

Button bloat has nothing to do with available functions or capacities. It has. Only. To do with taking more buttons than is needed to allow for a given capacity or function. It's not that complicated.

EXCEPT THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED!!! They just flat out removed them entirely.
If they had actually consolidated the buttons this wouldn't even be a point of discussion but they didn't do that. SE called it button bloat and cut skills. Your argument is based on something that does not align with SE's actions. They don't care about consolidating skills. They gave Biolysis the combined potency of Miasma and Bio and called it a day but did nothing to replace Bane to spread that potency to all targets. Art of War was Miasma 2 and that's it. Shadowflare? Gone without a care.This wasn't done to consolidate actions, it was done to just remove things.

Don't argue Button Efficiency because SE and you have VERY different opinions on the matter. You think it's one thing and SE is literally doing the opposite and yet you still argue otherwise. It's ludicrous.

Astrodyne, moreover, is not some Lucid Dreaming-equivalent; it's a self-buff (like PoM, but weaker and more thematically tied-in) of up to three types and if it so offends you that after using up Speed and Damage that they next went for Mana, change the Mana to Crit and think no more on it.

The parallel I was trying to make was that they added Astrodyne to AST so that it could get back something from its own system which is the point I am arguing for Afflatus Medica 2 and Cure 3. I am trying to build up the system for WHM to have its own MP sustain tools but it's somehow being demonized because it's not efficient. Neither was adding Astrodyne but it still happened. Energy Drain lost it's MP restore and the pitiful potency damage it does could have easily be distributed between the rest of SCH's skills but it still exists, despite SGE having the exact same system and no Addersgal Dump skill. Fey Blessing and Indom? Holos and Ixochole? Why do these things exist if SE is concerned at all with Efficiency? Because they DON'T care. You can think of a million different ways to consolidate skills but the fact is SE does not care about it at all. Your justifying this to yourself at this point because it only takes a cursory glance at the majority of the jobs to see that button efficiency is hardly on SE's mind at all.

.....then turn it into a Swiftcast-type action that uses only one button for every possible healing function it may be applied to. One button, every sub-function covered.

Like Eukrasia? Yeah, people complain about that idea too.

[Shurrikhan]

EXCEPT THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED!!! They just flat out removed them entirely.

Which has. Nothing. To do. With button bloat.

I don't know why you keep trying to pin this strawman on me. I am not SE. I did not take away your functions or capacities. I am not asking that either be taken away. I merely asked that we be mindful of button-efficiency in giving those function and capacities so that we might then have a greater total functions and capacities.

Don't argue Button Efficiency because SE and you have VERY different opinions on the matter. You think it's one thing and SE is literally doing the opposite and yet you still argue otherwise. It's ludicrous..

"Because SE has been satisfied with removing functions/capacities wholesale in the absence of efficient design, it is ludicrous for you to want to design efficient implementations of functions/capacities as not to have them removed in an expansion or two."

????

Why must I be answerable to SE's procedures that I have repeatedly contested? I. Am not. SE. Wanting more functions and capacities, as allowed for by having more efficient implementation, does not make me party to pruning capacities -- only to reasonable consolidation.

[Silver-Strider]

I merely asked that we be mindful of button-efficiency in giving those function and capacities so that we might then have a greater total functions and capacities.

And this is where me and you disagree. I care more about engagement rather than button-efficiency. I can suggest ways that are efficient but I don't particularly care for them.

Take my examples on Page 1.

Protect -> Aqua Veil
Stoneskin -> Divine Benison
Divine Seal -> Temperance.

All these suggestions are efficient but in truth, I don't really care for them. I would much rather introduce them as interesting job mechanics that actually add depth to the job rather than see them relegated to just low level copies of skills we already have. They might make for good learning tools in the leveling process for newbies, which is healthier for the overall game really but just seems like a missed opportunity.

[ty_taurus]

And this is where me and you disagree. I care more about engagement rather than button-efficiency. I can suggest ways that are efficient but I don't particularly care for them.

Take my examples on Page 1.

Protect -> Aqua Veil
Stoneskin -> Divine Benison
Divine Seal -> Temperance.

All these suggestions are efficient but in truth, I don't really care for them. I would much rather introduce them as interesting job mechanics that actually add depth to the job rather than see them relegated to just low level copies of skills we already have. They might make for good learning tools in the leveling process for newbies, which is healthier for the overall game really but just seems like a missed opportunity.

I mean I get we're begging for table scraps over here for healer changes, so shame on me for asking for too much, but why not have both?

Engagement is an important factor, and that's largely what's been sacrificed for the sake of pumping more healing buttons onto WHM--healing buttons that give us options, but are excessive to a point. Ideally, we should be considering how to slim down the tools and built engagement into them by allowing them to interact with one another, but this is the healing role we're talking about.

[Shurrikhan]

I mean I get we're begging for table scraps over here for healer changes, so shame on me for asking for too much, but why not have both?

Engagement is an important factor, and that's largely what's been sacrificed for the sake of pumping more healing buttons onto WHM--healing buttons that give us options, but are excessive to a point. Ideally, we should be considering how to slim down the tools and built engagement into them by allowing them to interact with one another, but this is the healing role we're talking about.

Changes in the role still have to start from somewhere, though. Having some design docs we can point at as a whole and across many attractive particulars and call good, with few to no places to call bad, would definitely help develop the conversation beyond just the blanket complaints (as useful as those are as a starting point).



:: I'll try to whip up something myself, in the near future, that goes more ham in trying to build something iconic of and for WHM, but in the meantime I'm not about to decline improvements to WHM's leveling experience or its current functionality.

[Silver-Strider]

I mean I get we're begging for table scraps over here for healer changes, so shame on me for asking for too much, but why not have both?

Engagement is an important factor, and that's largely what's been sacrificed for the sake of pumping more healing buttons onto WHM--healing buttons that give us options, but are excessive to a point. Ideally, we should be considering how to slim down the tools and built engagement into them by allowing them to interact with one another, but this is the healing role we're talking about.

Merge Afflatus Spells with their corresponding spell (Misery can take up Holy's Spot). If people are concerned about losing out on the options to pick and choose between Cure 2 and Solace, return Cleric Stance as a Eukrasia mechanic.
Merge Cure 1 equivalent spells with Esuna.
Merge Aqua Veil and Divine Bension.
Remove PI and lower the CD on Temperance to compensate.
Remove Benediction and buff Tetra to 800 potency with 2 charges that also grant a Lily to compensate. (Controversial to remove Bene but with a 3 minute CD, it was already dead most of the time anyway)
Make Freecure have a chance to have Cure 1/Cure 2/Solace proc a regen on the target. Change the name to Freegen because PUN.

So that's 7 skills removed and Freecure was changed to be actually useful (Blasphemy).

Let's add Diacloud and AoE Aero/Dia
Add Water/Banish as an Attack combo with Stone/Glare.
Since Diacloud can proc off the Regen effects granted by Cure1/Cure2/Solace, let's have Divine Seal proc off our AoE Heals. Each proc turns Glare/Banish into Divine Glare and Divine Banish, making them free, instant cast abilities with increased combo potency.
Overhealing with Assize will place a Confession on each player and turn Assize into Divine Judgement for 30 seconds. Using Divine Judgement will heal the targets for the original amount of overheal from Assize.

FIGHT ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Shurrikhan]

FIGHT ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd rather not; this sounds like a net improvement to me.

If you really insist, though, I prefer a potency-neutral, impactful Afflatus Misery (rather than an oGCD-fed one of either potency-positive or greatly reduced potency), would rather avoid RNG on the/any Freecure replacement, do not want a 1-2 combo Water-Stone-Water-Stone combo, and would rather not have my MP economy in offense be based on RNG.

I'd much rather Afflatus Misery be fed simply from GCDs and spent on the GCD, ideally usable with smaller increments of Lilies (or alternate resource's worth of time) spent at slight potency cost for further mobility; that all direct overhealing be turned into a Regen of equivalent value over 3 to 12 seconds' time (based on portion of overhealing), if we can find a way to allow for multiple simultaneous buffs; and for our enhanced attacks to be granularly built up in bankable fashion rather than needing to be released immediately as not to waste on-server-tick proc chances.

[ty_taurus]

I really don't understand the obsession with wanting to move stuff to the OGCD like with Misery and Toxikon. If we just fix their potencies, the problem is not only resolved, but that also means we get a dedicated GCD button that isn't Glare/Dosis/etc. that we actively want to use regularly.

[HyperiusUltima]

I really don't understand the obsession with wanting to move stuff to the OGCD like with Misery and Toxikon. If we just fix their potencies, the problem is not only resolved, but that also means we get a dedicated GCD button that isn't Glare/Dosis/etc. that we actively want to use regularly.

Misery and Toxikon can stay on GCD for all I care since they're offensives. I just want WHM's Afflatus abilities to actually be turned to oGCD since they grind hard against the 1.5s cast time despite being instant cast. It feels like there's a flaw in design when the other healers don't have this problem - and sure, you can argue that it'd be too similar to SGE in this regard, but those Lilies would at least be building up to something that's actually a gain instead of a loss and would bump up WHM significantly if they kept Misery's current potency.