WHM Desperately Needs An Overhaul

[Shurrikhan]

I'm arguing that SE is using Button Bloat as an excuse and little more.

Which has what remote relevance to not wanting to spend 5 buttons on lilies when the capacity (potency recovery, burst, and weave-space) could be more smoothly granted by far fewer? Why would you read into my position something that has nothing to do with it? I am not SE. I am merely arguing that you'd want to apply the very same logic (reasonable consolidation, etc.) to your own idea, because even if WHM is not yet at the button counts of AST and SCH, which we both already agree deserve consolidation, that doesn't stop bloated design from being undesirable.


That said...

They could hot-swap Shadowbringer's over Living Shadow since... they don't need to be separate buttons.

A ST non-snapshotting DoT on a 2-minute cooldown that ideally ought to be popped before raid buffs =/= a 1-minute, 2 charge linear AoE oGCD that ought to be popped within raid buffs. Play DRK in dungeons and see how well you like only being able to use a powerful AoE behind a ST DoT rarely useful in trash.

However, unlike Aqua Veil and Lilybell, there's at least a possible way to consolidate Afflatus Medica 2 and Cure 3 where Aqua Veil and Lilybell are kind of stuck unless they just get flat out removed.

Yes... IF you consolidate them, which is what I suggested (finding less bloated means of achieving the same or better functionality).

But let's also note that in moving those capacities onto the Lily system, you'd have then put Aquaveil and Lilybell (which, btw, are not merely Afflatus Medica II or Afflatus Cure III) on a shared resource cost with your other Lily skills and, most likely, force them onto the GCD.

having free versions of them with WHM's current MP economy would help a lot more than either Aqua Veil or Lilybell ever could.

If that were the vital concern, though, the far more direct, comprehensive, and obvious solution requires no additional buttons: reduce their MP costs (or that of WHM's overall kit per average use) or re-buff Thin Air. You don't spend 2 buttons on what can be better solved passively.

[Silver-Strider]

Which has what remote relevance to not wanting to spend 5 buttons on lilies when the capacity (potency recovery, burst, and weave-space) could be more smoothly granted by far fewer?.

The reason why I didn't bother with reasonable consolidation for Afflatus Medica 2 and Cure 3 is because Idgaf about button bloat. I only bother with making suggestions that cater to that asinine subject because otherwise I get stuck in pointless arguments with people that argue button bloat, like we're currently having.

A ST non-snapshotting DoT on a 2-minute cooldown that ideally ought to be popped before raid buffs =/= a 1-minute, 2 charge linear AoE oGCD that ought to be popped within raid buffs. Play DRK in dungeons and see how well you like only being able to use a powerful AoE behind a ST DoT rarely useful in trash.

Given my personal stance on Button Bloat, I don't want them to. I'm just stating possible ways that SE could justify consolidating skills, however asinine they might be.

But let's also note that you've then put Aquaveil and Lilybell (which, btw, are not merely Afflatus Medica II or Afflatus Cure III) on a shared resource cost with your other Lily skills and, most likely, force them onto the GCD.

Because I legitimately suggested that in the past, at least for Lilybell anyways.

If that were a vital concern, though, the far more direct, comprehensive, and obvious solution requires no additional buttons: reduce their MP costs (or that of WHM's overall kit per average use) or re-buff Thin Air. You don't spend 2 buttons on what can be better solved passively.

More boring way if you ask me and it's one of my main gripes about the button bloat argument. It's just boring. No creative solutions for solving a problem, just the same old same old

[Shurrikhan]

[Dealing with MP issues directly would be the] More boring way if you ask me and it's one of my main gripes about the button bloat argument. It's just boring. No creative solutions for solving a problem, just the same old same old

How is devoting extra buttons to directly copy over the healing kit into an Afflatus version each any less boring?

You have a problem caused by a Thin Air nerf. That problem is your MP expenditure per typical minute. That does not require two additional buttons to fix. Nor does needlessly throwing additional buttons at things make a kit any more interesting.

Would Lucid Dreaming somehow be more interesting if it were instead two buttons? Would MP economy be any more interesting if Tetra and Benediction each likewise gave MP and we were tuned around their maximum MP per minute, thus making their use less flexible?

When you deal with basic capacities only through specific buttons you then constrain those buttons' usage to those capacities; you can't make Lilies your sole solution to MP issues without then reducing their ability to be used for, say, potency-neutral bankable burst since just making them potency-neutral is already going to increase their usage and thereby their effect on MP economy.

Just make a given feature's implementation do what it's actually supposed to do and then deal with remaining issues as directly as possible. It's that simple, and dealing with issues straight-on does not make things more boring -- only less convoluted and less multiply constrained.

[Silver-Strider]

How is devoting extra buttons to directly copy over the healing kit into an Afflatus version each any less boring?

And how are Solace and Rapture any different? They were by no means necessary at all. They could have simply made Lilies generate as they currently do and just made Cure 2 and Medica instant, free cast spells while you had a Lily but they added Solace and Rapture for whatever reason. So are you going to advocate for their removal?

You have a problem caused by a Thin Air nerf. That problem is your MP expenditure per typical minute. That does not require two additional buttons to fix. Nor does needlessly throwing additional buttons at things make a kit any more interesting.Would Lucid Dreaming somehow be more interesting if it were instead two buttons? Would MP economy be any more interesting if Tetra and Benediction each likewise gave MP and we were tuned around their maximum MP per minute, thus making their use less flexible?

And couldn't you just add 2 charges of Lucid Dreaming? They didn't need to add Astrodyne. A 2nd Lucid Dream charge would have solved the problem all on its own but they wanted to make seals useful for something. How is wanting to make Lilies more useful as DPS and sustain tools any different than Astrodyne. It's the exact same concept.

Just make a given feature's implementation do what it's actually supposed to do and then deal with remaining issues as directly as possible. It's that simple, and dealing with issues straight-on does not make things more boring -- only less convoluted and less multiply constrained.

Because that's worked so well so far hasn't it? I sure don't miss Selene's old effects at all, her implementation is to heal after all. I'm sure no one liked the old card system for AST either. It was just DPS buffs, Bole/Spire/Ewer totally didn't have different effects at all. I have seen the light.....
....and it's BORING.

[Shurrikhan]

Because that's worked so well so far hasn't it? I sure don't miss Selene's old effects at all, her implementation is to heal after all. I'm sure no one liked the old card system for AST either. It was just DPS buffs, Bole/Spire/Ewer totally didn't have different effects at all. I have seen the light.....
....and it's BORING.

That has nothing. Whatsoever. To do with button efficiency.

Capacities are not buttons. Functions are not buttons. Actions need not each take a separate button.

Selene's Skill Speed and Spell Speed (later, Attack Speed) buffs were already auto-castable and could have easily been consolidated or outright made into auras because they are capacities, not buttons.

Balance, Bowl, Spear, Arrow, Ewer, and Spire only ever used a single button.

Button bloat has nothing to do with available functions or capacities. It has. Only. To do with taking more buttons than is needed to allow for a given capacity or function. It's not that complicated.

And how are Solace and Rapture any different? They were by no means necessary at all. They could have simply made Lilies generate as they currently do and just made Cure 2 and Medica instant, free cast spells while you had a Lily but they added Solace and Rapture for whatever reason. So are you going to advocate for their removal?

So long as you never wanted to save even a single charge of Lily for mobility and/or weave space (which seems unlikely in many a Savage fight), sure, you could remove the ability to control when you gain those benefits.

You could also, though, just have Lilies auto-complete (and make MP-free) healing casts that would have otherwise been interrupted by movement or damage taken such that the mobility-holding capacity can actually be used for mobility. No loss of function or capacity, but no buttons required.

Or reduce the cast times of WHM healing spells by ~.6s across the board to give some weave space and then turn it into a Swiftcast-type action that uses only one button for every possible healing function it may be applied to. One button, every sub-function covered.

And couldn't you just add 2 charges of Lucid Dreaming?

???

Charges don't increase uses per minute. You'd get only one extra Lucid Dreaming per fight. And if you're concerned about button bloat, why the hell would you want Lucid Dreaming at all? Is getting PKed shortly after a Lucid Dreaming and therefore having far less MP when raised... so exciting as to be worth a button? Unless we know when we're going to die and can therefore bank Lucid for it, there's no added function or capacity, only an added button -- which, yes, makes it bloat.

Astrodyne, moreover, is not some Lucid Dreaming-equivalent; it's a self-buff (like PoM, but weaker and more thematically tied-in) of up to three types and if it so offends you that after using up Speed and Damage that they next went for Mana, change the Mana to Crit and think no more on it.

______________

To reiterate one last time: Whether something is bloated or not depends on whether the implementation takes up more buttons than is necessary to achieve its target capacity and/or function. If something offers no capacity or function but requires a button, it is inherently bloated; most skills, however, at least offer something, but many could do all that (or better) without using so many buttons.

It has nothing directly to do total button count alone. A given design for WHM can still be bloated even if WHM currently has fewer buttons than AST or SCH. That AST and SCH are bloated does not excuse button bloat (needlessly inefficient design) for WHM.

[Silver-Strider]

Button bloat has nothing to do with available functions or capacities. It has. Only. To do with taking more buttons than is needed to allow for a given capacity or function. It's not that complicated.

EXCEPT THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED!!! They just flat out removed them entirely.
If they had actually consolidated the buttons this wouldn't even be a point of discussion but they didn't do that. SE called it button bloat and cut skills. Your argument is based on something that does not align with SE's actions. They don't care about consolidating skills. They gave Biolysis the combined potency of Miasma and Bio and called it a day but did nothing to replace Bane to spread that potency to all targets. Art of War was Miasma 2 and that's it. Shadowflare? Gone without a care.This wasn't done to consolidate actions, it was done to just remove things.

Don't argue Button Efficiency because SE and you have VERY different opinions on the matter. You think it's one thing and SE is literally doing the opposite and yet you still argue otherwise. It's ludicrous.

Astrodyne, moreover, is not some Lucid Dreaming-equivalent; it's a self-buff (like PoM, but weaker and more thematically tied-in) of up to three types and if it so offends you that after using up Speed and Damage that they next went for Mana, change the Mana to Crit and think no more on it.

The parallel I was trying to make was that they added Astrodyne to AST so that it could get back something from its own system which is the point I am arguing for Afflatus Medica 2 and Cure 3. I am trying to build up the system for WHM to have its own MP sustain tools but it's somehow being demonized because it's not efficient. Neither was adding Astrodyne but it still happened. Energy Drain lost it's MP restore and the pitiful potency damage it does could have easily be distributed between the rest of SCH's skills but it still exists, despite SGE having the exact same system and no Addersgal Dump skill. Fey Blessing and Indom? Holos and Ixochole? Why do these things exist if SE is concerned at all with Efficiency? Because they DON'T care. You can think of a million different ways to consolidate skills but the fact is SE does not care about it at all. Your justifying this to yourself at this point because it only takes a cursory glance at the majority of the jobs to see that button efficiency is hardly on SE's mind at all.

.....then turn it into a Swiftcast-type action that uses only one button for every possible healing function it may be applied to. One button, every sub-function covered.

Like Eukrasia? Yeah, people complain about that idea too.

[Shurrikhan]

EXCEPT THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED!!! They just flat out removed them entirely.

Which has. Nothing. To do. With button bloat.

I don't know why you keep trying to pin this strawman on me. I am not SE. I did not take away your functions or capacities. I am not asking that either be taken away. I merely asked that we be mindful of button-efficiency in giving those function and capacities so that we might then have a greater total functions and capacities.

Don't argue Button Efficiency because SE and you have VERY different opinions on the matter. You think it's one thing and SE is literally doing the opposite and yet you still argue otherwise. It's ludicrous..

"Because SE has been satisfied with removing functions/capacities wholesale in the absence of efficient design, it is ludicrous for you to want to design efficient implementations of functions/capacities as not to have them removed in an expansion or two."

????

Why must I be answerable to SE's procedures that I have repeatedly contested? I. Am not. SE. Wanting more functions and capacities, as allowed for by having more efficient implementation, does not make me party to pruning capacities -- only to reasonable consolidation.