What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Khalithar]

It subverted our expectations and is therefore clever writing. Just ask Rian Johnson.

[aveyond-dreams]

I like this idea so much more. Maybe then Elidibus would actually be able to be featured on the ending credits art instead of….Hermes????I still don’t understand why he’s on it and Elidibus isn’t. Did the devs and writers just forget he too was a part of the hydaelyn and zodiark arc or was Ishikawa just being biased towards what we know now are her favorite characters (Hermes and Meteion).

I can only imagine that Hermes or Meteion would be someone's favorite characters if they spent a disproportionate amount of time developing them in stark contrast to the few interactions we have with them as actual players of the game. There is a huge disconnect here and its starting show more and more as time goes on. How did we go from antagonists on the level of Emet-Selch and Elidibus to these? They need to focus less on nebulous "meaning of life" nonsense and create characters with more focused goals and motivations, like the Convocation.

Also, I fully agree with you in regards to Elidibus and his significance. However seeing as how he's Themis and we don't know what will occur over the events of Pandemonium, I'm content with being able to still interact with him in the raid series and hoping that the story pays off somehow. I certainly feel more for him as a tragic antagonist, because his story is a lot easier to emphasize with as opposed to the whirlwind-writing of Hermes and Meteion. It's time to go back to the writing board or better yet summon back the Heavensward/FFXVI writing team.

They seem to be good at delivering on the staples of what makes any good story: characters with distinct personalities, personal-driven goals, and realistic ways in which they go about interacting with the world. Take Estinien and Clive: something horrible happened to their families, and they're out for revenge, no matter the cost. Similarly, Emet-Selch and Elidibus's actions are grounded and believable, given the context of the situation they find themselves in. These characters are not perfect but that's what draws more people in, certainly more than Hermes anyway.

When the more fleshed out characters exited the story, the plot completely went off the rails. The Moon was hardly focused on Zodiark apart from its earlier sections, and I would have gladly traded away the time we wasted with the Loporrits for more time invested into anything and everything to do with Zodiark, especially with something like a Lunar Subterrain dungeon. The second part of Thavnair during the final days was great-but wouldn't it have been even better if we could have experienced that in the beginning instead of trying to play detective in Sharlayan or watching an NPC get ridiculously close to a door that is just open enough for something to grab her through?

As for later sections-the second half of Labyrinthos was a boring mess that made Shadowbringer's trolley quests seem exciting. After so much buildup, I also found the pre-fight scene with Hydaelyn to be unusually short and almost somewhat forced? There was a lot more that could have been done or said there, and then there's Ultima Thule. A zone with a cool song, but a story so predictable that there was no way for me to take it seriously apart from when Emet and Hythlodaeus return. Overall there's a lack of willingness to take bold actions with the story, and characters have too much plot armor for any of their decisions to carry enough meaning or consequences.

[Kozh]

Ultimately, the moral is 'it's okay if we do it' or 'it's okay if we win in the end and get the result we want'.

EDIT: Also a funny thing I noticed in the last three months... the strange romanticizing of suffering, as if receiving it or overcoming it will instantly transform you into some ubermensch with irl plot armor. It's not as if it will break you and make you cope for the rest of your life, or worse, make you into a Yotsuyu/Nidhogg who exists to spread that pain. Makes me think of some aristocratic lady sighing wistfully from her mansion as she imagines the wonderful simple struggles of a peasant farmer.

This is pretty much what I get from the story as well. We (the protagonists) argue with emet to hell and back about how "you don't get to dictate the fate of the world by yourself" back in ShB, only for them to conveniently forget about this principle when facing venat. Just gloss over it like a good child and focus on the big bad of the expansion, who, we also forced to be sympathize with by holding her hand and letting her live (sort of, if the bird we saw during the ending is real).

And I have to agree with your assessment about the story's message compared to real life. I get where they're coming from, but at the same time it feels pretentious as well. They depicted people who wasn't able to overcome their despair as "weak", and in venat's case "not worth saving" I guess.

Frankly, the message also falls apart when the protagonists are afforded every helps they needed and get to "cheat" by not following the same rule as the other npc. Just look at the scion's fate on Ultima Thule.

[Rulakir]

Ultimately, the moral is 'it's okay if we do it' or 'it's okay if we win in the end and get the result we want'.

It does seem ideological.

How did we go from antagonists on the level of Emet-Selch and Elidibus to these?

It felt like they tried too hard to make Hermes and Meteion sympathetic. There was a thread on another forum where the discussion centered around whether or not Meteion should've been allowed to do anything after her trial and only one person spoke up on her behalf, everyone else considered her far too dangerous to not be eliminated even if they liked her and believed Hermes was ultimately at fault.

I never see much discussion about Hermes/Fandaniel. It kind of seemed like the writers/devs thought if the players could forgive Emet they could forgive Hermes, but the situations were entirely different. Emet was trying to restore their world, Hermes wanted to destroy it.

It's time to go back to the writing board or better yet summon back the Heavensward/FFXVI writing team.

I adored HW. I loved Shadowbringers too, but EW was a mess. I understand covid was an issue (which may have been to blame for EW's insufferable platitudes) as well as time factors and Yoshi-P's executive decision to end the story in 6.0 opposed to 7.0 or 8.0 like Ishikawa wanted, but as a result I am not confident about the story going forward. I've heard Ishikawa wants to hand the reins off to junior writers, but what have they done that I've seen in game? Not to mention the "conflict of values". I definitely don't want to see more of that after EW where I consider the writers/devs to have been on the wrong side ethically. I'm not looking forward to being pitted against another tragic antagonist who my values may align with more than my own character.

And I have to agree with your assessment about the story's message compared to real life. I get where they're coming from, but at the same time it feels pretentious as well. They depicted people who wasn't able to overcome their despair as "weak", and in venat's case "not worth saving" I guess.

I mentioned in another thread about a discussion on Reddit among people with depression saying they'd just be screwed during the Final Days, it would've ended up being a filter for the mentally ill who wouldn't be able to stop themselves from turning into blasphemies. I doubt the writers considered that, but it's still a bad look.

[jameseoakes]

It felt like they tried too hard to make Hermes and Meteion sympathetic.

I never see much discussion about Hermes/Fandaniel. It kind of seemed like the writers/devs thought if the players could forgive Emet they could forgive Hermes, but the situations were entirely different. Emet was trying to restore their world, Hermes wanted to destroy it.

Hermes did feel really awkwardly written to where he went from being really emotional about the impending death of his predecessor and some of the the unviable creations they'd made but seems to be very OK with everyone being killed in horrific ways all of a sudden (as we've told him what will happen) he justed seemed a complete mess of a character and was for impossible to empertise with.

[Misplaced_Marbles]

Ultimately, the moral is 'it's okay if we do it' or 'it's okay if we win in the end and get the result we want'. No biggie. I'm making the mother of all omelettes here, WoL, who's gonna fret about billions of eggs? Now clean up my mess.

Might makes right, indeed.

Ethics department

SE has an ethics department? And they were OK with the story and characters? Wow, it's going to take me days to collect myself from all the laughing I'm about to do. Hah!

[Minarisweet]

Wow I didn't realize so many people were dissapoint with endwalker story lol. Did people get too hyped or something? I feel like everything was very fitting and of course a lot of the characters have some holes, especially venat... but I think from what I've read here people are being way more critical of the story than with shadowbringers? I don't know honestly but it feels to me like even if the story has geniune issues xiv msq always had genuine issues that people would look past from and still enjoy the story.

[jameseoakes]

Wow I didn't realize so many people were dissapoint with endwalker story lol. Did people get too hyped or something? I feel like everything was very fitting and of course a lot of the characters have some holes, especially venat... but I think from what I've read here people are being way more critical of the story than with shadowbringers? I don't know honestly but it feels to me like even if the story has geniune issues xiv msq always had genuine issues that people would look past from and still enjoy the story.

I liked Shadowbringers story it was both good to play through and felt like it was laying the groundwork for something, Endwalker doesn't feel like it built on that and just feels like it was written by someone bored of the story. It also did a really bad job tying up long running plot threads like Hydalin and Zodiark, the writer clearly didn't care about the the long running plot threads and only interested in the few characters they had written them and having to push them hard

[aveyond-dreams]

Looking back, Hermes and Meteion having more time dedicated to them than Zodiark and Hydaelyn was so absurd that I can hardly believe it. Not even 30 minutes with Zodiark and a similarly rushed experience with Hydaelyn. Instead, we had to swallow hours on end of Hermes and his ridiculous "despair."

There were better ways to have resolved some of these plot threads so I'll go ahead and list them below:

Zodiark: rather than encountering "the Watcher" we encounter one of the last remaining Convocation members who opposes Fandaniel's plot and we go with them on a journey down to the moon's subterrain in order to protect Zodiark against Fandaniel and Zenos, possibly failing but still obtaining a "blessing of darkness" to grant us immunity from the Final Days. 75% of the moon's MSQ quests would revolve around this, with the minority remaining being devoted to the Loporrits. Zodiark would display some kind of affection towards his people despite his monstrous appearance, and it is accepted that although he was flawed, he is nevertheless the reason that the star was originally saved.

Hydaelyn: Venat's role is expanded to encompass that of a "fallen angel" in terms of rebelling against the way the ancients behave and would roughly be on par with how Ryo behaves in Devilman Crybaby-someone who is trying to be your friend, when in reality they are harboring the deepest evil inside them. In her arrogance, she grants the ancients something akin to the curse from the fruit of knowledge, triggering the Final Days due to the new emotions stirring in them like despair. Zodiark is summoned to stop this and restore order, and in doing so banishes Venat and her followers, who sacrifice themselves to create her angelic "goddess" form. The two battle in a conflict akin to the Biblical Celestial Schism, resulting in Zodiark's defeat and Hydaelyn being left with a broken world, over which she rules knowing that should Zodiark ever break free that she would undoubtedly be destroyed, but instead of Zodiark it is the WoL who puts an end to her.

Hermes and Meteion: do not exist.

Simple as that!

[Skyborne]

Might makes right, indeed.

Damn you! Damn you and your bles -- simple traveller's ward! (I still can't get over that reveal, along with 'changing the laws of creation' being reduced to 'hurr aether bubble', really sucked the mystique out of everything and I really felt like some kid playing in a sandbox with mommy holding my hand. sundered stronk!)

Wow I didn't realize so many people were dissapoint with endwalker story lol. Did people get too hyped or something? I feel like everything was very fitting and of course a lot of the characters have some holes, especially venat... but I think from what I've read here people are being way more critical of the story than with shadowbringers? I don't know honestly but it feels to me like even if the story has geniune issues xiv msq always had genuine issues that people would look past from and still enjoy the story.

I think it was a victim of the tremendous hype and marketing too, which didn't help matters, yeah. I think a lot of us have been enjoying the story for many years... the end of such a long investment of time is always prone to such things even if they tread carefully and do their best.

Zodiark

Yes, it was really weird that none of the other sundered ascians showed up, assuming that they were true believers and that Fandaniel was truly different from them all. I can only assume they were in other shards and unaware of what happened, and Yoshi all but confirmed that these characters were being kept in the writer's pockets to be pulled out into the future... still. Garlemald 2 would've been a perfect time for at least one to show up and go along the lines of 'Zodiark is dead, but it's still our duty to protect this star, I can't let all of our work have been for nothing'.