What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[KageTokage]

The problem with Venat is the massive plot hole. We do not yet know what happened between Elpis and the Final Days.

They basically abandoned any possibility of that time frame (Or anything between then and the Sundering for that matter) actually mattering after they decided to make it so she already knew what was going to happen as a result of the causal loop.

[Rosenstrauch]

Alternatively, they may have been able to present Elpis as an untouched relic of the Ancient world (Which is what almost everyone seemed to think it was when it was initially shown in pre-release material) to avoid the time travel entirely, though it doubtless would've made for a less intriguing zone if we were learning of the past strictly through records and perhaps Echo visions.

Something really crazy they could've done is build on the memory interaction shown in Bozja. Have the player go to Elpis in the present day, only to discover that little remains other than ruins. Then use the memory crystal things, the Echo, and the location's memories to "travel" to Elpis in the past, assuming the role of an important character there. We could learn about what happened in the past through several dives—let's say one for each of the big islands—and culminate them in exploring the ruins/past memories of the dungeon there.

Doing it like that could completely avoid the time travel/closed loop plot. We'd lose the unique trusts, probably. And I think Venat would still need to lose her memories from that point on, and only regain them after sundering the world and placing herself in the aetherial sea. By that point it would genuinely be too late to act on them, since she'd already squandered her best chance to defeat Meteion, and is now tied up in maintaining Zodiark's prison.

EDIT: As an aside, since we learn about Elpis from Elidibus and since Elidibus's sacrifice was solely for the sake of the time travel plot, he would still be alive in this case. We could've extracted him from the tower. Found a way to have him join us. Whether as a permanent fixture in the plot or delaying his sacrifice until, say, the Aitiascope or the journey to Ultima Thule.

I think that would have made up for losing some of what I liked about Elpis—the side quests, and the friendly interactions with the core Ancients.

[Garnix]

They basically abandoned any possibility of that time frame (Or anything between then and the Sundering for that matter) actually mattering after they decided to make it so she already knew what was going to happen as a result of the causal loop.

Venat only knew what we knew and told her.
And we did not know what happened between Elpis and The Final Days either.
My take is that, based on what she knew, she tried to avoid the Sundering, but at the end realized that the future we told her was the only/best way out.
As Ryaz rightfully said : "It's not within her character to just sit around doing nothing".

[KizuyaKatogami]

Something really crazy they could've done is build on the memory interaction shown in Bozja. Have the player go to Elpis in the present day, only to discover that little remains other than ruins. Then use the memory crystal things, the Echo, and the location's memories to "travel" to Elpis in the past, assuming the role of an important character there. We could learn about what happened in the past through several dives—let's say one for each of the big islands—and culminate them in exploring the ruins/past memories of the dungeon there.

Doing it like that could completely avoid the time travel/closed loop plot. We'd lose the unique trusts, probably. And I think Venat would still need to lose her memories from that point on, and only regain them after sundering the world and placing herself in the aetherial sea. By that point it would genuinely be too late to act on them, since she'd already squandered her best chance to defeat Meteion, and is now tied up in maintaining Zodiark's prison.

EDIT: As an aside, since we learn about Elpis from Elidibus and since Elidibus's sacrifice was solely for the sake of the time travel plot, he would still be alive in this case. We could've extracted him from the tower. Found a way to have him join us. Whether as a permanent fixture in the plot or delaying his sacrifice until, say, the Aitiascope or the journey to Ultima Thule.

I think that would have made up for losing some of what I liked about Elpis—the side quests, and the friendly interactions with the core Ancients.

I like this idea so much more. Maybe then Elidibus would actually be able to be featured on the ending credits art instead of….Hermes????I still don’t understand why he’s on it and Elidibus isn’t. Did the devs and writers just forget he too was a part of the hydaelyn and zodiark arc or was Ishikawa just being biased towards what we know now are her favorite characters (Hermes and Meteion).

[ReynTime]

They didn't need to go through a convoluted time loop plot when the Echo exists.
And they could easily pull off an Elidibus telling us how to use the power of the Echo like we used to in 1.0, back when we almost literally traveled back in time, interacted with things and NPCs, but they wouldn't have any memories of meeting us. No need for any Kairos nonsense.

[Lauront]

Something really crazy they could've done is build on the memory interaction shown in Bozja. Have the player go to Elpis in the present day, only to discover that little remains other than ruins. Then use the memory crystal things, the Echo, and the location's memories to "travel" to Elpis in the past, assuming the role of an important character there. We could learn about what happened in the past through several dives—let's say one for each of the big islands—and culminate them in exploring the ruins/past memories of the dungeon there.

Doing it like that could completely avoid the time travel/closed loop plot. We'd lose the unique trusts, probably. And I think Venat would still need to lose her memories from that point on, and only regain them after sundering the world and placing herself in the aetherial sea. By that point it would genuinely be too late to act on them, since she'd already squandered her best chance to defeat Meteion, and is now tied up in maintaining Zodiark's prison.

EDIT: As an aside, since we learn about Elpis from Elidibus and since Elidibus's sacrifice was solely for the sake of the time travel plot, he would still be alive in this case. We could've extracted him from the tower. Found a way to have him join us. Whether as a permanent fixture in the plot or delaying his sacrifice until, say, the Aitiascope or the journey to Ultima Thule.

I think that would have made up for losing some of what I liked about Elpis—the side quests, and the friendly interactions with the core Ancients.

See, this is more along the lines of what I'd have expected them to do given that we were now learning more of the Echo. You could even keep the trusts to some degree, just as some manner of Echo "immersion", like VR. Even for Pandaemonium, you don't need Elpis and its time travel. You could use very similar logic to uncover a facility with intact concept matrices and something which discovered it and sought to take advantage of them, with the Echo providing ties to Lahabrea's life there.

The only way I could see time travel ever being used in a way I'd find interesting is if they used it to create some kind of AU where things went differently for the ancients. Otherwise? It just made it hugely convoluted and a lot of plot elements suffered for it.

[Theodric]

"It's not within her character to just sit around doing nothing".

...but that's exactly what she did, in order to preserve the timeline instead of embracing her supposed world view of 'nothing is impossible'. She very quickly wrote off her entire species in favour of the Sundered and the writers want the player to pretend as if that isn't the case and that she's a 'herois' for not even bothering to do absolutely everything possible in order to try and save the Ancients.

Had the Sundering been accidental or had Venat lost her memories of what transpired in Elpis then the character would have walked away looking at least slightly better. Yet having her just decide to judge her people based on knowledge she deliberately held back was simply bizarre.

[Rulakir]

I like this idea so much more. Maybe then Elidibus would actually be able to be featured on the ending credits art instead of….Hermes????I still don’t understand why he’s on it and Elidibus isn’t. Did the devs and writers just forget he too was a part of the hydaelyn and zodiark arc or was Ishikawa just being biased towards what we know now are her favorite characters (Hermes and Meteion).

I just think it's funny after all the "gEnOcIdE" arguments surrounding ShB, the take away in EW is that it's not a big deal. The two (3 if you separate Hermes & Meteion) characters responsible for the most deaths not only on Etheirys but the universe are featured prominently and positively in the post game art. Even with Meteion it's like, "Yeah, you've destroyed countless worlds, but it's totally cool if you want to fly off and sing another song." :P

[KizuyaKatogami]

I just think it's funny after all the "gEnOcIdE" arguments surrounding ShB, the take away in EW is that it's not a big deal. The two (3 if you separate Hermes & Meteion) characters responsible for the most deaths not only on Etheirys but the universe are featured prominently and positively in the post game art. Even with Meteion it's like, "Yeah, you've destroyed countless worlds, but it's totally cool if you want to fly off and sing another song." :P

It honestly is just…idk how to describe it lol. It annoys me to no
end that they feature Venat prominently on it but her counterpart is nowhere to be seen after his 5 minute cameo. Meanwhile the devs will preach on about no biases etc…hard to take that seriously when they go through so many
hoops to try and paint certain characters as better than others while just completely excluding other prominent characters that have far more importance in the overall story.

[Skyborne]

I just think it's funny after all the "gEnOcIdE" arguments surrounding ShB, the take away in EW is that it's not a big deal. The two (3 if you separate Hermes & Meteion) characters responsible for the most deaths not only on Etheirys but the universe are featured prominently and positively in the post game art. Even with Meteion it's like, "Yeah, you've destroyed countless worlds, but it's totally cool if you want to fly off and sing another song." :P

Ultimately, the moral is 'it's okay if we do it' or 'it's okay if we win in the end and get the result we want'. No biggie. I'm making the mother of all omelettes here, WoL, who's gonna fret about billions of eggs? Now clean up my mess.

Ethics department in SE? Don't be silly, they only swoop in when a fictional woman's cup size exceeds a certain acceptable threshold.

EDIT: Also a funny thing I noticed in the last three months... the strange romanticizing of suffering, as if receiving it or overcoming it will instantly transform you into some ubermensch with irl plot armor. It's not as if it will break you and make you cope for the rest of your life, or worse, make you into a Yotsuyu/Nidhogg who exists to spread that pain. Makes me think of some aristocratic lady sighing wistfully from her mansion as she imagines the wonderful simple struggles of a peasant farmer.