What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Ixon]

snip

Thanks for the details! Without more information, I would LIKE to think that our character perhaps leaned more towards the "morality" of treasuring all life outside of the Ancients and that's why they were not involved with the initial summoning of Zodiark, if they knew full well of the entire plan. Hopefully we get more those details before they completely remove themselves from this story line. Going back to the 5.2 cutscenes where we first see Venat, the conversations seem to lead that even with the summoning of Zodiark, they were still doomed. Now either the story was changed(possible) to fit in the new narrative, or they did not think the path with Zodiark was still doomed no matter what, or they were all referring to The Plenty as their impending doom as you mentioned. As for the "tempering" of the three Unsundered to the will of Zodiark, the language could be seen as you described, but I wonder why Elidibus has a sort of "snap back to reality" moment after we defeat his Warrior of Light form as if he had forgotten his path? Though as the heart of Zodiark he would probably suffer the most influence, that and perhaps his young age played into effect. Again, most of this can be explained by missing, conflicting, ill-translated writing, but it is fun to discuss(least for me).

[Lauront]

Thanks for the details! Without more information, I would LIKE to think that our character perhaps leaned more towards the "morality" of treasuring all life outside of the Ancients and that's why they were not involved with the initial summoning of Zodiark, if they knew full well of the entire plan. Hopefully we get more those details before they completely remove themselves from this story line. Going back to the 5.2 cutscenes where we first see Venat, the conversations seem to lead that even with the summoning of Zodiark, they were still doomed. Now either the story was changed(possible) to fit in the new narrative, or they did not think the path with Zodiark was still doomed no matter what, or they were all referring to The Plenty as their impending doom as you mentioned. As for the "tempering" of the three Unsundered to the will of Zodiark, the language could be seen as you described, but I wonder why Elidibus has a sort of "snap back to reality" moment after we defeat his Warrior of Light form as if he had forgotten his path? Though as the heart of Zodiark he would probably suffer the most influence, that and perhaps his young age played into effect. Again, most of this can be explained by missing, conflicting, ill-translated writing, but it is fun to discuss(least for me).

They've basically left the ancient Azem's actions open to player interpretation for now at least and down to how their character would react, without committing to it. With that said, it'd sit ill at ease with me for my character to basically screw over their people for non-ancient life forms, if it amounted to that, which I'm not too convinced of for now, particularly because I believe they're trying to steer clear from that as the focal point given how polarising it could be. Having them be complicit in her actions would more or less be the final straw for me and I think they'd be wise to leave it as it is if that's where they're going with it. As for Elidibus, he is absolutely affected by it via the memory decay (which he allows to happen), but it's different in nature to Lahabrea because he keeps sight of his duty to his people as his ultimate motivator, while forgetting what set him on that path.

How much of it all is down to retrofitting the EW story to SHB is anyone's guess.

[PawPaw]

Meiton was still out there, so even if life was created anew, what would be different given The Song of Oblivion's presence.

Meteion could literally have her nose pressed up against the Zodiark windshield yelling "hoo hoo!" and she never would have made it past that point.

[Theodric]

Meteion could literally have her nose pressed up against the Zodiark windshield yelling "hoo hoo!" and she never would have made it past that point.

Yep. Plus if the Ancients were made aware of Meteion's existence...then they could have worked towards finding a solution to the problem. Not only for the sake of their world but all the others that succumbed to Meteion's influence. After all, by withholding the information she had access to Venat is indirectly responsible for the destruction of numerous worlds.

Which makes her decision making process all the more baffling, really. I'm sure we'll soon be subjected to another lecture from Alphinaud about how wrong it is for a character to stand by and do nothing even as other characters suffer. In the usual tone deaf, hypocritical manner where somehow Venat is a 'herois' for doing exactly that.

[PawPaw]

Yep. Plus if the Ancients were made aware of Meteion's existence...then they could have worked towards finding a solution to the problem. Not only for the sake of their world but all the others that succumbed to Meteion's influence. After all, by withholding the information she had access to Venat is indirectly responsible for the destruction of numerous worlds.

Which makes her decision making process all the more baffling, really. I'm sure we'll soon be subjected to another lecture from Alphinaud about how wrong it is for a character to stand by and do nothing even as other characters suffer. In the usual tone deaf, hypocritical manner where somehow Venat is a 'herois' for doing exactly that.

Certainly. I think most of us would have been happier had they never been forced to resort to something like Zodiark to begin with and found another way; But mmo storytelling at the end of the day, I guess.

All I can do is cross my fingers that one day they'll give us the alternate timeline where the Ancients aren't punished by a single self-righteous ideologue for not suffering enough.

[Brinne]

Once again, debating the ins and outs of the viability of Venat pursuing other options is ultimately irrelevant, because she decides right before our eyes that she thinks that the Ancients have to pass Hermes's test by facing the Final Days. Were there other ways Venat chose not to pursue? Of course there were other ways. Look at the sheer improbability/miraculous factor to our victory - who could have predicted Zenos showing up at the eleventh hour to save us, when Meteion effortlessly melted the Scions when they faced her, despite all their resolve? If our victory hinged on such a far-fetched miracle shot, I don't see any reason to presume that some kind of miracle wasn't also possible for the Ancients.

Yes, Venat hems and haws a bit about why immediately going straight to the Convocation might have complications, but strip down everything and boil it down to her core conclusion and you're still left with:

Regardless of how we proceed, if we are to permanently avert the Final Days, we must be equal to Hermes's challenge. We must prove that mankind is worthy to exist. And this hinges, I think, on how we confront the all-consuming despair that accompanies a senseless and seemingly inevitable end.

In Venat's mind, the true enemy was never actually Meteion, per se. Given her report, Venat believes that Meteion has a right to question whether mankind should even bother existing, so the only way to go is to "answer" her via taking her on and letting her test play out. Ultimately, Venat was, more than anything else, worried about the Plenty.

EDIT: To put it another way, assuming that Venat's goal was to "save lives" is the wrong premise to begin with, and is going to lead to confusion because her actions don't make sense following that. Venat's goal was not "saving lives." It is, as she stated, "proving life is worthy to exist," the altar upon which she allowed countless number of individual lives to be sacrificed. Was it worth it? Well, uh, come to your own conclusions. I don't think life has anything it needs to prove, personally, but.

[Lauront]

*snip*

I agree, but I think it's worth at least addressing it as a point because it is her stated reasoning to Y'shtola, and it at least has a veneer of plausibility if you don't consider the fact that the story allows for some alternative possibilities right off the bat. Given how Yoshi articulated the point, you're right that the fate of the Plenty is the overarching concern and her decision to sunder is driven by and subservient to that:

Q: Venat had good intentions and her plan worked out in the end. But as a result the world was Sundered and most of the Ancients suffered. Was Sundering the star really the only way to save it?

A: This is a question that I consulted with Nacchan (Natsuko Ishikawa, Scenario Writer of Endwalker) to come up with the answer so it will make sense when we explain it. At the very least, as Y’shtola theorizes, Venat believed that the Ancients, being so dense in Aether, could not control Dynamis. So she thought they could not have stopped the Final Days and its source. So you know there were other Ancients who thought summoning Zodiark would solve everything but she saw that summoning Zodiark and using it to deflect Meteion’s “Despair Beam” and thought, “even if we were to do this and keep going as we are the rest of the Ancients will probably be unable to change as a people” when she’s looking at Hermes, or “we will always be our own undoing”. If you look at the dungeon, “The Dead Ends”, at the very end there’s a boss called Ra-la, and that’s sort of our vision for what probably would have happened to the Ancients if we just let them continue as they were. So for that reason, she chose to Sunder the star to dilute mankind’s Aether so that someday they might be able to use Dynamis and to fight back against despair and the Final Days at the Source

With that said, she did not really give them much reason to change, so it became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

EDIT: To put it another way, assuming that Venat's goal was to "save lives" is the wrong premise to begin with, and is going to lead to confusion because her actions don't make any sense with it. Venat's goal was not "saving lives." It is, as she stated, "proving life is worthy to exist," the altar upon which she allowed countless number of individual lives to be sacrificed. Was it worth it? Well, uh, come to your own conclusions. I don't think life has anything it needs to prove, personally, but.

The way I make sense of it is that she felt this question had to be answered one way or another for life to persist without meeting the fate of the other stars Meteion had encountered. My view on it is that while the issue may have been genuine, Hermes's conditions of "fairness" and the way she seemed to honour these in her own way by not revealing the actual basis of her concerns to her people (yes, the story gives some purported rationale on her part for it, but I don't find it awfully compelling) were utterly unreasonable and had no place in the entire ordeal... not to mention in the end the sundered get given the answers with plenty of assistance. Plus given that they share many of the aspirations of the ancients to reduce suffering along various dimensions, most prominently showcased in the Scions, there is little to guarantee that with the passage of time, any "lessons" learnt will not be forgotten in due course... and "our plight is repeated." Particularly given that these aren't the long-lived ancients.

[Caurcas]

My stance on the Ancients/Ascians and their plight is summed up well by another poster's signature. "Don't Care. Didn't Ask. Plus you're tempered."

[Kyohei]

Maybe, in the end, it's actually pretty realistic. Sadly realistic situations aren't all the time equal to logical, especially when humans are involved.
Things aren't always just and logical. People and populations suffer irrational choices of others on daily basis. Some die unfairly, some other rise and try to make the most of it. At the very least we can see ancients as martyrs maybe?
And probably be thankful Venat didn't just fill the worlds with loporitts...

That might just be me trying to find some reasons in all this in order to try and appreciate what's to come, idk.

[Rulakir]

It's still irrational to me. The sundered are no more equipped to not become The Plenty, in fact, one of the notes states that they started out similar to the sundered. Venat may have kicked the can down the road, but it's not as if her 'solution' is permanent.

I hesitate to mention Allag or Garlemald because people get hung up on them being Ascian constructs, but Allag was close to "perfection" and Garlemald was close to the second world in the Dead Ends. It doesn't take a lot to manipulate mankind into destroying themselves.