What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Rulakir]

You know, something that never quite sat well with me regarding our mission in ShB is that were attempting to prevent the 8UC by preventing the light wardens from finishing off the First, but back at the Source, Zenos was acting out on his own and successfully regained his body and proceeded to assassinate his own father, thus preventing him from issuing the order to deploy Black Rose. If he was going to do this anyways, what exactly was the point in going to the First at all?

It makes me wonder if Zenos didn't exist in the 8UC timeline because I had the same question. It'd also mean that timeline was doomed no matter what since the only way the WoL was able to defeat Meteion was with Zenos' assistance. Given that a lot of his plot was dropped, like why he'd been dreaming about Amaurot since childhood or what Emet 'found a way' to do with him, it makes me wonder if he was meant to be more integral to the plot.

[Kozh]

It makes me wonder if Zenos didn't exist in the 8UC timeline because I had the same question. It'd also mean that timeline was doomed no matter what since the only way the WoL was able to defeat Meteion was with Zenos' assistance. Given that a lot of his plot was dropped, like why he'd been dreaming about Amaurot since childhood or what Emet 'found a way' to do with him, it makes me wonder if he was meant to be more integral to the plot.

Rather than doomed because Zenos isn't there to be a platform for us, the timeline is doomed because no one go back in time. This means venat won't be able to tag meteion in elpis, probably won't even know her existence. Then again, the only timeline that isn't doomed due to this time loop is our current timeline, since going back to unsendered world require the modified CT + elidibus being trapped there.

[BaconBits]

Honestly they should of just not introduced time travel to begin with.

[Rulakir]

Rather than doomed because Zenos isn't there to be a platform for us, the timeline is doomed because no one go back in time. This means venat won't be able to tag meteion in elpis, probably won't even know her existence. Then again, the only timeline that isn't doomed due to this time loop is our current timeline, since going back to unsendered world require the modified CT + elidibus being trapped there.

The 8UC is just a mess now with the context of EW. Someone in another thread said: "8UC is basically a complete 'bad end' for Venat right down to people again trying to return to the past over going forward in the future (and by his very nature G'raha is the biggest thematic walking contradiction in the entire universe) and despite the short story existing to try and suggest some hopeful future for it, the storyline of Endwalker would imply that it's completely doomed."

[Leigaon]

I thought the Zodiark part came a little too early and didn't have the giant impact I was hoping for. The build up though was good.Still was cool and fun to see.

I just don't get Zeno's much..I have more of a personal connection to Edda Pureheart than I did Zenos.

Then he just pops out of nowhere...trained in the room of spirit and time.

Now Valens van Varro. That's a guy I can dislike and have no problem wanting to take out. I'd even raise him afterwards so I can do it again..and again.....and...again.

[linayar]

I think someone had a fairly good analogy with the GoT season 8 thing. Was it a subversion? Sure. Was it anything objectively good?

Well, unlike season 8, I don't think this was objectively bad. (And the reason why season 8 was bad was insufficient build up, in my opinion, which I hope the final book would be a better version, still waiting...)

It just really downplayed the events for me and made me question what genre of the game i’m playing. Am i playing an rpg or a slice of life anime with haha’s everywhere.

The answer, to me, has always been both, not just for FFXIV. It's a slice of life in a world of conflict. That's what endeared me to the franchise in the first place, at least in the games that I've played so far.

I think subversion is being generous as it typically means that it leads to an interesting outcome.

It does lead to the end of Endwalker, which is a very interesting outcome for me.

You know, something that never quite sat well with me regarding our mission in ShB is that were attempting to prevent the 8UC by preventing the light wardens from finishing off the First, but back at the Source, Zenos was acting out on his own and successfully regained his body and proceeded to assassinate his own father, thus preventing him from issuing the order to deploy Black Rose. If he was going to do this anyways, what exactly was the point in going to the First at all?

If we weren't pulled to the First, we would've aided the war effort and pushed the Garleans to use Black Rose.

[Sicno]

The new Final Days happened as a result of Zodiark dying due to Fandaniel's shenanigans, which may not have happened in the 8UC timeline. Besides not having Zenos as his buddy he wouldn't have a chance with Emet and Elidibus still around. An undisturbed Zodiark would have kept doing his thing and shielding the planet against Meteion.

Speaking of the 8UC timeline and Zenos, remember that originally the WoL would have won the duel against Elidibus possessing Zenos's body, something that didn't happen in our current timeline because we got pulled by G'raha Tia. While it may have been possible for him to possess his now twice-deceased body it's also possible you can't beat a dead horse too many times.

I'm trying to remember exactly how the threat of Black Rose ended, can't remember if it was Zenos or Gaius's group who destroyed the last batch. There's a lot to cover in SHB's story to pinpoint the exact point.

[Rulakir]

I'm trying to remember exactly how the threat of Black Rose ended, can't remember if it was Zenos or Gaius's group who destroyed the last batch. There's a lot to cover in SHB's story to pinpoint the exact point.

Fortunately, I just finished going through ShB again, it's "Vows of Virtue, Deeds of Cruelty" at the end of 5.1. Estinien tells you in the Rising Stones: "Until order is restored--assuming it even possible--we needn't fear an imperial reprisal. And for reasons of his own, Zenos took it upon himself to rid the world of Black Rose."

[Sicno]

Fortunately, I just finished going through ShB again, it's "Vows of Virtue, Deeds of Cruelty" at the end of 5.1. Estinien tells you in the Rising Stones: "Until order is restored--assuming it even possible--we needn't fear an imperial reprisal. And for reasons of his own, Zenos took it upon himself to rid the world of Black Rose."

Thanks, it took me a while but I checked that part and then also others during vanilla SHB and SB patches. I'm trying to figure out if Black Rose in the 8UC timeline should have indeed been destroyed or not by the non-Scions as they did in our timeline, as was proposed a couple of pages ago. In our current timeline it wasn't only Zenos but also the team of Gaius, Estinien and friends who destroyed all of the Black Rose factories.

Trying to untangle things: G'raha's intervention begins by pulling Thancred, preventing him to undergo his "war of subterfuge" about Zenos being an ascian. This may not have affected things with Black Rose but let's just remember this is where the timelines split.

Later he pulls Alphinaud and Gaius delivers his body to us, also informing us about Black Rose. This may have contributed to its final destruction, as we were prepared for it sooner rather than later (even though Maxima had alerted us about a "new weapon" Gaius's intel was more detailed). If Alphinaud wasn't pulled to the First we wouldn't have encountered Gaius there.

Then in the duel against Elidibus-Zenos at the Ghimlyt Dark we get pulled momentarily, preventing us from slaying that body and from having a decisive victory against the Garlean army. From what's told to us later having pushed further to squash the empire would have forced their hand to use Black Rose (even though G'raha tells us that winning or losing that war doesn't matter and leads to the same end). In our current timeline they still planned to use it eventually but they may have used it sooner in the 8UC timeline, before all the factories could be destroyed.

Also related to that same duel, in a post-credits cutscene the real Zenos laments at the scene of the duel that "had I been but a step faster...", so in the 8UC timeline he could have encountered us there because we wouldn't have been spirited away (in spirit by G'raha and in body by Estinien) and have his desired rematch. Of course in his technically-ascian status where death is not enough to get rid of him he could have hopped back to his old body which was lying right there, or keep trying in other bodies. All kinds of crazy possibilities arise at this point, but it could be that he either gets satisfied or somehow dies for real and he wouldn't be there later to destroy the Black Rose factories.

Later on Tataru recruited Estinien to our cause to compensate for the absence of the Scions (and us). He went to destroy the Black Rose factories thanks to the intel we previously got from Gaius at The Burn. There he meets Gaius himself and they team up. It's possible that Gaius would have been more successful by going with him instead of Alphinaud, who would still be with him in the 8UC timeline. Then again, they show that Alphinaud did destroy with him the only factory known at the time.

Also Emet-Selch was distracted with us in the First instead of helping prevent the destruction of Black Rose. Considering it was his chosen method for the next calamity he would have helped defend it.

So while there are contradictions elsewhere in the story I don't think Black Rose existing in the 8UC timeline is necessarily one of them. While we know little of what happened in it it's entirely possible that it wouldn't have been destroyed.



Edit: added more clarity to why I was looking into this in the first place.

[Caurcas]

Honestly they should of just not introduced time travel to begin with.

This, and the ancients.