What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Rulakir]

Except Hermes would have to be brought into the fold if all the Convocation were to know - which would work against her because now Hermes could turn against them and they would not have someone who can replace him in the Convocation who also excels in research of outer space & aetherology for future problems (and his expertise was what led them to discover the stagnation of the aether currents & figure out the strategy to forestall the Final Days in the first place).

The previous Fandaniel hadn't stepped down yet and I doubt he'd return to the star knowing there was an impending global crisis on the horizon. Hermes also wasn't the only scholar in his field. The game didn't provide sufficient proof that he was at all integral to the creation of Zodiark. Elidibus only credits him with discovering the stagnation, which Venat could have told them to look for instead.

As a result, we don't know if Zodiark was needed because they didn't know or have the opportunity to prepare. They could have come up with an alternate solution and, even if not, Zodiark could've been created before the Final Days had decimated the world to the point where the only aether to use for him was from Amaurotine sacrifices.

Also, the Final Days wasn't a test, it was a condemnation. No one was ever going to or arguably even meant to pass that test. Had the Final Days 2.0 been given more time to ravage the sundered world I'd guarantee you it would've ended up similarly to the original with the remaining inhabitants willing to do whatever it took to make it stop and return to normal. People act as if Meteion was ever going to be swayed by the people of Etheirys changing. It'd been 12k years and they were still turning into blasphemies. Sundering and millennia of suffering and despair had done jack to save Etheirys. It was always going to come down to the WoL, groomed and given every advantage possible, to defeat Meteion or flee the star.

[Brinne]

It was always going to come down to the WoL, groomed and given every advantage possible, to defeat Meteion or flee the star.

Hey now, don't forget Zenos!

[Kozh]

Congratulations. You got a villainous Hydaelyn.
You got your Mommy Crystal Genocidaelyn. Your big evil angelic mommy milker crystal of sundering.

Was it worth it?

Considering I never give a fuck about Venat, safe for hating her for letting minfilia took a burden trying to save the First for 100 years alone, I would say yes.

I mean, I'm not happy with how bad the writing is. But seeing those toxic Venat stans flailing around trying to salvage their fav after the LL.... Definitely worth it X'DDD

Edit:
And also, friendly reminder that the Live Letter Q&A outright stated that trailers are made before any plot is established.
So yknow.
The story was never going to make any fucking sense following that logic.

I don't remember they say that, but I don't think it's made before ANY plot is established. The only time the trailer is outright "wrong" is HW trailer when they sue hraesvlgr model instead of nidhogg. The trailer made before all details are established, yes I can believe that. But major plot? I'm not sure.

And I don't really understand the relation between this and the discussion we were having.

[Lauront]

1 - The Ancients weren't shown to be unwilling to listen to reason when it came to working to the benefit of Etheirys. Even when Emet-Selch was sceptical of the story told to him by the player character, he vowed to take it seriously since it was his sworn duty as a member of the Convocation. A key point to remember is that Venat wrote off the Ancients based on information she had available that would have helped them. Nor was it ever a guarantee that they were fated to destroy themselves - it was very much framed as her opinion, rather than an inevitable conclusion.

On point 1. this is in fact shown throughout the Elpis sidequests, where many of the ancients will willingly adapt new practices or insights where they think they make sense. She and Hermes may have harboured certain beliefs about their people, but the sidequests paint a more complex picture. Even the whole debate over the sacrifices of the "new life" was premised over the securing the best future for the star (which she herself concedes in 5.2 in Anamnesis Anyder.) So concrete evidence that their way of life could ultimately end in their doom might've swayed matters. Even the Scions (Y'shtola in particular) were sceptical about a situation like the Plenty ending in doom, until they saw it, so I think it's unrealistic to expect ancients who had seen so many ills wiped out over time through their efforts to just be convinced through mere words. Had they been given a full account and the chance to investigate further? Might've had another outcome.

I said it weeks ago in some long buried argument in Lore, but I view Venat as an, "Anti-Villain." Much in the same vein as Ozymandias from Watchmen.

The grandest desire to do good, while also validating her own morals and perceived superiority.

I mean, think about it. She lived her life flying in the face of Amaurotine society, to a degree, taking what she thought was good and denying what was bad. She already believed herself above her society.

Her act can be described as cruel, and to quote one of the best lessons ever shown in gaming:

"Cruelty leads to suffering. And when one suffers, it is the way of life to spread suffering. The suffering within builds, until its sound is all one hears. And so when a kindness is offered, it is punished. And a greater darkness is served."

KOTOR2's Beggar Problem

Look at Venat's actions, and then imagine that it wasn't a story where the conclusion of victory was predetermined. Imagine if we'd faced Meteion and lost. What would we think of Venat's actions then?

I thought this poster has a pretty interesting take on what truly motivated her, or at least swayed her, and in my view it is as you have worded it - through providing validation to her own deeply held beliefs. That scene where she discusses the future with you on the skybridge is where I got the impression that she may have been swayed to commit to preserving the timelines later on, and I think this only enhanced the dissatisfaction she had with her people's responses in the face of her words (their reactions were quite understandable given the circumstances and what they had actually been told.) I suspect though is that she was not prepared for what she'd end up seeing play out in practice, and that's why she becomes conflicted and apologetic over it, even if it gets the job done in the end. Anyway, I agree with your question about flipping the outcome (and you can do the same for the Rejoinings, beyond being instrumental parts of her plan, i.e. premise that their completion would've been necessary to drive back Meteion - would people then be comfortable with them?) Whatever the outcome, I think she at least acknowledges the harshness in it.

That's...not really what I was getting at at all.

I simply reasoned that a race that was largely devoid of strife and conflict was more likely to have brought calamity to itself through something like a search for knowledge/answers and/or tampering with forces they didn't have a complete understanding of; both of which were fulfilled with Hermes' creating the Meteia to seek out the peoples of other stars.

On the other hand, something like Jenova, Lavos or the Creator would also have fit equally well. The star is rich in aether and souls after all. I had thought they'd have an internal collaborator though, a subversive type like Hermes. In essence, Meteion was corrupted by what she saw in the alien civilisations, but meh, still not what I hoped for.

[Metalface_Villain]

The story imo was done well and the theme it tackled (meaning of life, fear of dying) was an important one for many people, which is proven by so much art about the same topic existing throughout all our history.
My problem with the story was that it was a bit predictable at some points. One of the most predictable things to happen (imo) was our friends coming back which made it less emotional for me when it was supposed to pay off.
I also didn't like the conclusion of it all, the happy ending, but I know that is just a me thing. If I look at it outside of my pitch black soul, I can see and appreciate the therapeutic and cathartic effect the story has for so many people. This is more than just a story as with other ff14 stories, it also tries to and succeeds to help people and give them hope and I think that is more important than some small "mistakes" in the story telling.
I would list Zenos being criminally underutilized in the expansion as one of the issues I had but I'm almost certain that we will see him again and that this was just a small step into his character growth.
That's the issues I had with the story now regarding yours, I feel that depression, despair and fear are way bigger of a hurdle to deal with than just a primal, regardless of how strong said primal might be, so I didn't mind Zodiark getting his cheeks clapped early.
The catalyst of the final days was the despair you inherit just by being born, the search and failure of finding meaning and the arrogance of the "perfect" ancients, not a cute blue birb.
As far as Venat goes, she played the long game and the only hand she had and did what she though was best for us to finally make it. She saw the flaws in the ancients and how their fate was inevitable. Seeing us from the future means that she needs to let the sundering happen to even have the one in a million chance of success. If she didn't let it happen (which she couldn't even if she tried) we wouldn't come to the past to even show her that it will happen anyways, which would make it worse for the final days (0 chance instead of the 1 in a million we got now). The time travel here doesn't work like the mcu with new branches in reality if you change the timeline nor does it work like other movies that you change the past and the future is changed too.
The point of her story just like with the expansion in its entirety is that even if things are inevitable, there can still be hope.
If you look behind simple facts and see at it a bit more philosophically you might enjoy the story more in a second playthrough, plus remember that we got more story to come.

[AnotherPerson]

The previous Fandaniel hadn't stepped down yet and I doubt he'd return to the star knowing there was an impending global crisis on the horizon. Hermes also wasn't the only scholar in his field. The game didn't provide sufficient proof that he was at all integral to the creation of Zodiark. Elidibus only credits him with discovering the stagnation, which Venat could have told them to look for instead.

As a result, we don't know if Zodiark was needed because they didn't know or have the opportunity to prepare. They could have come up with an alternate solution and, even if not, Zodiark could've been created before the Final Days had decimated the world to the point where the only aether to use for him was from Amaurotine sacrifices.

Also, the Final Days wasn't a test, it was a condemnation. No one was ever going to or arguably even meant to pass that test. Had the Final Days 2.0 been given more time to ravage the sundered world I'd guarantee you it would've ended up similarly to the original with the remaining inhabitants willing to do whatever it took to make it stop and return to normal. People act as if Meteion was ever going to be swayed by the people of Etheirys changing. It'd been 12k years and they were still turning into blasphemies. Sundering and millennia of suffering and despair had done jack to save Etheirys. It was always going to come down to the WoL, groomed and given every advantage possible, to defeat Meteion or flee the star.

Well.. that's the problem. In the quest "The Greatest Contribution" Emet states that in the Fourteen, there's no one who specializes in the Celestial. That means the previous Fandaniel has no knowledge or skill in aetherology or dynamis like Hermes does. In that regard, the previous Fandaniel would not have been able to forestall the Final Days as they couldn't pinpoint what was causing it. Only Hermes was able to deduce the effects was a result of stagnant aether currents by viewing the aether currents based on his research in the study of aetherology.

So no, the previous Fandaniel wouldn't be able to do anything that the current Fandaniel could have in relation to figuring out how to Forestall the Final Days.

It's easy to say Venat can come with an alternate solution - but the alternate solution is to really go and stop Meteion - who already flew outside of Etheriys and the ancients had no way of actually approaching her due to the lack of technological advancement as the Ancient's sole focus & concepts was always been developing life on the star, not travel to distant stars, and definitely not to the corner of the Universe.

You are right to say it is a condemnation - but that's because the means to pass the test was beyond the Ancients due to being too stubborn to change their ways and accept that their world wasn't perfect, which was why they failed. Meteion has already seen civilizations similar to theirs heading towards the same route, which would render their 'life' meaningless. Accepting their flaws is the first step to creating a new answer for Meteion, which can lead to a new solution. However, the precursor requires the ancients to not go down the path that other dead civilizations have tried - trying to achieve perfection & bliss of the star.

A calamity like this happened to the Eorzea in the present, but rather than be condemned, we looked at it as a way to prove to Meteion that our right to exist is just as valid during our time. For us, we took on all the failures of other stars and still overcame her despair. This is the difference in outlook to the question "What gives meaning to life?"

And in the end, Meteion did get swayed by the people of Etheriys changing. It was pretty much the plot point of the Endwalkers cutscene when the WoL shares their experience to her.. she learned death and suffering will come to everyone and no one can live a life free from sorrow, but it's how we make the most of our lives during our time, which is what gives the meaning to life. Thus, did she decide to sing a final song to give birth to new life instead of singing the song of oblivion.

[Sicno]

Well.. that's the problem. In the quest "The Greatest Contribution" Emet states that in the Fourteen, there's no one who specializes in the Celestial. That means the previous Fandaniel has no knowledge or skill in aetherology or dynamis like Hermes does. In that regard, the previous Fandaniel would not have been able to forestall the Final Days as they couldn't pinpoint what was causing it. Only Hermes was able to deduce the effects was a result of stagnant aether currents by viewing the aether currents based on his research in the study of aetherology.

So no, the previous Fandaniel wouldn't be able to do anything that the current Fandaniel could have in relation to figuring out how to Forestall the Final Days.

This is only if you go the route of patching up the celestial currents. We've discussed this here before, but among the things we know about calvinball dynamis is that it can't affect aether of a certain density, that's why Meteion couldn't affect the ancients themselves, only their creations and other less dense lifeforms. The correlation with the stagnation of the celestial currents was the only thing they could find in the dark that worked, without knowing the actual cause of the problem.

At the beginning of our visit Hermes commented in the presence of Emet and Hythlodaeus that aether trumps dynamis, that knowledge is already a good starting point in finding solutions if the ancients were even half the scholars and researchers they were depicted as.

It's easy to say Venat can come with an alternate solution

It's not that she needed to find a solution HERSELF, and completely by herself. What we could have expected from her was simply to warn their kind about the situation so that then they could put their collective minds together to work on a solution.

"Oh but they wouldn't have believed her" - Well she has the echo to show things to people. Also remember she gave us a crystal with the tracing data on Meteion? She could have shown that to others. Also Emet already gave enough merit once to our ludicrous story to deem it worth of investigation because it could concern the safety of the star.

"Oh but Hermes would have opposed her" - And? We have no idea how they handled things like crime, but if the events of Elpis would have been made public I don't see why they wouldn't have forced him to cooperate and share his knowledge, considering their survival was now uncertain.

You are right to say it is a condemnation - but that's because the means to pass the test was beyond the Ancients due to being too stubborn to change their ways and accept that their world wasn't perfect, which was why they failed.


A calamity like this happened to the Eorzea in the present, but rather than be condemned, we looked at it as a way to prove to Meteion that our right to exist is just as valid during our time. For us, we took on all the failures of other stars and still overcame her despair. This is the difference in outlook to the question "What gives meaning to life?"

The "test" didn't even matter. The sundered didn't behave better than the ancients. Just look around everywhere in the world, all the atrocities perpetrated, the lack of regard for others' lives, all the wars, the genocide, the subjugation, etc. (all things our dearest "Mother" allowed to happen btw) and in the end the real reason we were able to reach Meteion and defeat her was because we just happened to have the one time traveler who was there when things went to hell and who deigned to share their findings. Only THEN someone could do something about it. Wow, an incredible "test", 10000% the sundered are better than the ancients.

[aiqa]

The second half the the story was pretty nice but overall still have a few issues with.
- Huge numbers of people die, but only people we don't know or only met a few minutes ago.
- Having your friends sacrifice themselves only to be resurrected a few minutes later, cheapens the whole sacrifice theme.
- First half the the story was boring in general.
- Endings to story lines that were build up to for multiple expansions felt anti climactic. Most notably Zodiark, Zenos and the whole of the Garlean war.
- Cause of the Final Days felt a bit arbitrary.
- To many Japanese (I assume) story themes that don't make sense to a western people. Like (but by no means limited to) Hermes' story "I said something while assuming A, but now that it turns out like B I have to follow through even if it destroys the word", or "I need time to listing to Meteion, so I am going to fight you in stead of asking you to wait for 10 minutes".
- Main antagonists dialogues constantly trying to prove how evil they are.

[Lauront]

This is only if you go the route of patching up the celestial currents. We've discussed this here before, but among the things we know about calvinball dynamis is that it can't affect aether of a certain density, that's why Meteion couldn't affect the ancients themselves, only their creations and other less dense lifeforms. The correlation with the stagnation of the celestial currents was the only thing they could find in the dark that worked, without knowing the actual cause of the problem.

At the beginning of our visit Hermes commented in the presence of Emet and Hythlodaeus that aether trumps dynamis, that knowledge is already a good starting point in finding solutions if the ancients were even half the scholars and researchers they were depicted as.

And to add to this, it is scholars in the plural (known from the Watcher) who were credited with discovering the celestial current method. Not just Hermes.

[Sicno]

And to add to this, it is scholars in the plural (known from the Watcher) who were credited with discovering the celestial current method. Not just Hermes.

Yeah, and even if that wasn't the case just knowing something "exists" already speeds up research on it tremendously as an uncertain, accidental discovery is no longer required and is replaced by conscious efforts, theorizing and trial and error.

Having other researchers already be initiated in the concept would speed things up even more and it's entirely possible that dynamis research would have gone viral. But no, it was kept a secret as the world fell to ruin.