What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[PawPaw]

As it stands, there's still no actual explanation why we're even able to keep returning to Elpis whenever we want after it was made to sound as though our time there was limited.

This and even though we were barely formed and tiny on our first trip through, from there on out we are always tangible and correctly sized. Not complaining too hard because I love Elpis but...how? How can I even travel there through literal time using an aetheryte? Why would I not have to travel through the portal Elidibus makes us every time? At least they make an effort to explain why we can return to Ultima Thule anytime.

[KizuyaKatogami]

This and even though we were barely formed and tiny on our first trip through, from there on out we are always tangible and correctly sized. Not complaining too hard because I love Elpis but...how? How can I even travel there through literal time using an aetheryte? Why would I not have to travel through the portal Elidibus makes us every time? At least they make an effort to explain why we can return to Ultima Thule anytime.

I have a question kind of relating to this that i don’t know if it was ever answered or what…but why does Emet look the way he does in Elpis? That appearance is supposed to be young Solus. He should look nothing like that in his original form lol.

[NanaWiloh]

Only half-jest, no less. I don't think I can stress enough how everything we've seen in Venat borders on resembling a clinical narcissist or, if I were to stay in my lane, a prodigal coward. This entire story was simply a fetishization of pain and suffering with someone mentioning an analogy I agree with in saying it's as if "An aristocrat listfully thinking about the charm of what a peasant endeavors." A story about pain by people who don't know what pain is. And I'm to understand the one who made themselves into the divine protector of a now-wartorn world rife with calamity and viciousness from what we know of how beast tribes are treated and things like the Dragonsong War is the ultimate do-gooder that simply wants people to feel pain because pain builds character. Also people call her the Mother Crystal?

I was already beaten enough by my real mother, thank you. I don't need a virtual one chipping in.

Harrowing look into my personal life aside, this really is all I extracted from the expansion and with pretty potent bile growing in me. To worship what's adjacent to abuse and is just flat out treason? Bah, I'll leave well enough alone. It's definitely something I could get carried away from. I'll maintain that EW simply feels like it was written by people who are completely disconnected with those who have truly felt what it's like to be trampled underfoot while.. well.. idealizing said trampling (but it's okay because if you kill everyone who thinks you're wrong or happen to be favored by the right people, you'll be justified and nothing can hurt you. Right, Heidi/Scions?). I really hope 6.1 onwards is better.

The writers are not disconnected. Lose the thought train that writers are obligated to avoid offending you or anyone else. Story writers write what they want and like it or not. If they choose they will offend, gross out,shock or do things that go against ones moral compass. They are writing to entertain not to pamper anyones issues personal or otherwise.

[BrokentoothMarch]

The writers are not disconnected. Lose the thought train that writers are obligated to avoid offending you or anyone else. Story writers write what they want and like it or not. If they choose they will offend, gross out,shock or do things that go against ones moral compass. They are writing to entertain not to pamper anyones issues personal or otherwise.

Where did I demand to be pampered? What are you even talking about? They didn't shock or offend. This just flat out was stupid in conveyance? If you're going to white knight, can you at least retain coherency?

Your heroes don't always have to follow a moral compass. It's when you decide you want to force the viewer to adapt their compass with the character's when there is a very obvious disconnect between that character's principles and that with those that are most widely accepted. Unless you intend to tell me tormenting others to make them stronger and genociding your species is somehow justifiable?

Like that first bit is LITERALLY an undeniable and massive symptom of narcissism, to say nothing of making herself a goddess later on and naming the world after herself. Call me close minded, but most narcissist tend to be bad people and Venat doesn't strike me as breaking the mold. So when the writers seem surprised that most do not want to relate or sympathize with a cruel narcissist, that's usually a sign that the writers might be disconnected from their audience.

This isn't me crying about seeing a girl get stabbed and blowing it up into some weird political tangent. Venat is a bad person. The writers think she is a good person. Most people agree Venat is a bad person. This is literally what being disconnected means.

[KageTokage]

I have a question kind of relating to this that i don’t know if it was ever answered or what…but why does Emet look the way he does in Elpis? That appearance is supposed to be young Solus. He should look nothing like that in his original form lol.

Considering that he mentions taking over some poor sap's body then reshaping it into the likeness of Solus when he traveled to the First, I don't think it would be a stretch that he changed the appearance of other bodies he claimed to more closely resemble that of his original one.

Especially with him being a slave to sentiment as some put it.

[NanaWiloh]

Where did I demand to be pampered? What are you even talking about? They didn't shock or offend. This just flat out was stupid in conveyance? If you're going to white knight, can you at least retain coherency?

Your heroes don't always have to follow a moral compass. It's when you decide you want to force the viewer to adapt their compass with the character's when there is a very obvious disconnect between that character's principles and that with those that are most widely accepted. Unless you intend to tell me tormenting others to make them stronger and genociding your species is somehow justifiable?

Like that first bit is LITERALLY an undeniable and massive symptom of narcissism, to say nothing of making herself a goddess later on and naming the world after herself. Call me close minded, but most narcissist tend to be bad people and Venat doesn't strike me as breaking the mold. So when the writers seem surprised that most do not want to relate or sympathize with a cruel narcissist, that's usually a sign that the writers might be disconnected from their audience.

This isn't me crying about seeing a girl get stabbed and blowing it up into some weird political tangent. Venat is a bad person. The writers think she is a good person. Most people agree Venat is a bad person. This is literally what being disconnected means.

Close minded is a understatment.

[BrokentoothMarch]

Close minded is a understatment.

The irony in your post is palpable. You won't tackle anything I say and shut down when I explain my position.

You are allowed to like Venat and the story. Some people here just don't and we want to share with each other why. Not sure what coming here and being passive-aggressive gets you.

[NanaWiloh]

I don't disagree, but the time travel doesn't help making her likeable at the end of Elpis, this was my point.
She can stays the way she is but then that meant giving up on making her really likeable because as we see many can't appreciate someone who willingly with all the knowledge they posses decides the only solution involves the end their own civilisation.
It was either one or the other, but they mixed both and thus this thread appears (along with many others reasons, but the way they handled her is one of the main points).
It's not only the players that were sceptical, npcs like Y'shtola had dialogue harbouring doubts too when talking with her in Rising Stones. They made it so we were in doubts and seemed to assume it fully. Then Endwalker arrived and doubts vanished to leave place to acceptance and adoration again out of nowhere. That instead of accepting Venat as a flawed person who made mistakes as much as ascians counterparts.
So I stand by saying both time travel and trying to persuade Venat as good are issues on their own, which mixed lead to even bigger issues.

On a side note, Hermes' development while it might not be rational/logical from the point of view of a sane mind is still understandable, because his emotions devoured him until nihilism. When emotions are unchecked the way it is with him, they are hardly ever rational. He sunk deeper and deeper and I do understand it, the same way I understand Zenos is actually interesting as a product of his environment.

Both sides made mistakes, both sides hurt people for their own ends. Its all about who you agree with Venant or the Ascians or neither.

[Kyohei]

Both sides made mistakes, both sides hurt people for their own ends. Its all about who you agree with Venant or the Ascians or neither.

Yes, but that is certainly not something we get out of Endwalker. Your character always smiles at Venat after receiving the flower, and the scions do not have a critical view on what she did. The scions had a critical view on Emet-Selch despite understanding where he's coming from, but no such display happened with Hydaelyn. They lacked showing that she made mistakes in the game, and that is a big issue. If they wanted to show both made mistakes, they failed to bring forth this idea in Endwalker. By this i mean in the general feeling when playing the game, not with interviews. Yoshida did kind of admit she wasn't all good, but he shouldn't have to say this outside of the game, it should've been clear they were saying this inside.

[Lauront]

Precisely! I would also say that this is empathy going above and beyond what I'd consider necessary given what these beings are at the end of the day, but all the same, they were shared sentiments to some degree. Obviously not all ancients shared such views, much as humans differ in how we view animal life, but it was clear that these sentiments were fairly normalised in their society, and that Hermes's specific issue was more to do with his inability to cope with death and where that left any sense of purpose in life. It doesn't take an awful lot to rekindle this in Amon. The judgement of his society, which he uses to excuse damning them, seems to be a sideshow.

Only half-jest, no less. I don't think I can stress enough how everything we've seen in Venat borders on resembling a clinical narcissist or, if I were to stay in my lane, a prodigal coward. This entire story was simply a fetishization of pain and suffering with someone mentioning an analogy I agree with in saying it's as if "An aristocrat listfully thinking about the charm of what a peasant endeavors." A story about pain by people who don't know what pain is. And I'm to understand the one who made themselves into the divine protector of a now-wartorn world rife with calamity and viciousness from what we know of how beast tribes are treated and things like the Dragonsong War is the ultimate do-gooder that simply wants people to feel pain because pain builds character. Also people call her the Mother Crystal?

I was already beaten enough by my real mother, thank you. I don't need a virtual one chipping in.

Harrowing look into my personal life aside, this really is all I extracted from the expansion and with pretty potent bile growing in me. To worship what's adjacent to abuse and is just flat out treason? Bah, I'll leave well enough alone. It's definitely something I could get carried away from. I'll maintain that EW simply feels like it was written by people who are completely disconnected with those who have truly felt what it's like to be trampled underfoot while.. well.. idealizing said trampling (but it's okay because if you kill everyone who thinks you're wrong or happen to be favored by the right people, you'll be justified and nothing can hurt you. Right, Heidi/Scions?). I really hope 6.1 onwards is better.

I agree with your analysis. Much as Yoshi tries to chalk it up to her being an ancient, it's not really consistent with what we see of the rest of them (and we see behaviour similar to this with some sundered antagonists and even protagonists), and he has to refer to an Emet-Selch very much changed after 12k years of gruesome toil to restore his people, to make the point, and Hermes, who by all accounts is an outlier. In comparison to everything else we see of them? It's a poor fit. I wanted to like her after Elpis, but unfortunately the way it all concluded leads me to think you're correct, and I'd add to this that she seemed to be a rather special case of Munchausen by proxy, along with a messianic complex. Coupled with the time travel and all its associated contrivances, yes, I caught the Meteion despair bug going around in the story - at least with respect to its possible future.