Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[sidurgu-12]

Ah, so it's a conscious choice? That's very interesting. I do wonder in that case why lesser primals tend to make their tempered more mindless zombies, as it seems you can only benefit by having the devotion still clearly present in a more cognizant mind. Definitely something to consider, but it further drives home the point that Zodiark's tempering couldn't have really had much of any relevance, because he quite literally has no will of his own, and certainly not the insight to make such a decision in tempering his summoners.

it could be because of the ascians alterations to the spell and them missing a core.

[Lauront]

Ah, so it's a conscious choice? That's very interesting. I do wonder in that case why lesser primals tend to make their tempered more mindless zombies, as it seems you can only benefit by having the devotion still clearly present in a more cognizant mind. Definitely something to consider, but it further drives home the point that Zodiark's tempering couldn't have really had much of any relevance, because he quite literally has no will of his own, and certainly not the insight to make such a decision in tempering his summoners.

Yes, the interview established that the primal can control the degree of tempering - that is, where it's consciously desiring to temper. In Zodiark's case, there are multiple factors pushing against the notion that the tempering actively controlled their wills, the biggest being as you mention, that he lacked such a will. The lopporit suggest it is the power going into him that can cause tempering; and when Emet-Selch discusses it, he frames it in terms of alignment to the primal's dark aether and an urge to spread that aspect. Moreover, he was not created with the simplified rites the Ascians passed down to the beast tribes, which is what causes those summoners to want to spread their zeal. We learnt with Tiamat that even with such rites, the nature of the primal (Bahamut being her consort) meant it wasn't particularly pronounced in her case, although as it was removed her memories flooded back. Over time, tempering appears capable of causing memory/identity loss. So I believe that's why Lahabrea was hit the hardest after 12k years - because he made zero effort to preserve his identity. Elidibus still had his duty to the star and his people, from being a member of the Convocation, and that drove him. His refusal to replenish his memories is to avoid interference with his duty, so I believe in his case it's strength of identity to some degree that helped preserve autonomy. Emet-Selch worked hard to preserve both.

In light of all this, I struggle to see tempering as being particularly relevant, especially to the pre-Sundering Convocation. I suspect they just added it to explain the fanatical behaviour of the likes of Nabriales and Lahabrea. We understand that back then, they were driven by strong desire to want to reunite with those inside Zodiark, and that the ancients prized being able to return to the star, which such a limbo state potentially causing some distress to the souls inside him. Elidibus then emerges from him to mediate (and in the FR version of the SoS dialogue it is spelt out clearly that he does so because the Convocation itself was divided), and we can theorise that he could give voice to the concerns of those souls and prove that the withdrawal is technically feasible. I'm not sure what the invocation of tempering by some adds to any of this, because Zodiark is losing those souls inside him so this act is not strictly beneficial to him - and again, he has no typical primal will and certainly not the beast tribe primal type. The sacrifices of the "new life" are to replenish his aether reserves for the loss of aether he'd suffer, not to add to those reserves.

Tempering bends your thoughts to what the primal wants it does not always turn you into a mindless person who can only mutter their god's name. The Heaveanward, the Serpent Revaers, Cid's father, the twins grandfather, Nael and the tempered Ala Mhigan soldiers from 4.1 are all examples of this. The conovation was for the sacrifices it was everyone else who debated and it was these fierce debates that led Elidibus to draw himself out to mediate.

Jump down to point 2 here.

[Theodric]

Did I say that? No. You don't have to like her. Keep your reasons for not liking her to the story in question and not your speculations on what ifs and just making stuff up. A lot of the dislike seems to come from that she didn't give her people a chance, which is a lie, they were given a chance and a choice and they choose to not deal with the problem and its aftermath and simply hide behind Zodiark.

You're free to frame it however you so wish yet that isn't what I or others opposed to Venat have been doing. There's no grand conspiracy against the character, I assure you - especially since I found Venat to be pretty likable for most of the Elpis MSQ's.

I'd also consider not using every tool possible in order to save her civilisation and species to be worthy of scorn, because stories where some subversive individual arises to kill everyone 'for their own good' don't tend to do much for me, I'm afraid. As Venat herself proclaimed 'nothing is impossible'. Except, apparently, preserving her own species.

The criticism of the Zodiark plan is also deceptive. Putting aside that it was only Venat's opinion that the Ancients would eventually destroy themselves based on Meteion's report, let's not forget the key element at play. Venat deliberately held back information regarding the approach of the Final Days as well as the existence of Meteion. Then opted to judge the Ancients as a whole based on...reacting to a traumatic event sprung on them entirely out of the blue and deciding to write them off despite not giving them the information required to find a way to combat Meteion. Or at least exhaust every possibility from within Zodiark's protective barrier.

After all, let us not forget that if not for Zodiark there would be no Etheirys as it was the first and second round of sacrifices that resulted in the restoration of living conditions upon the planet as a whole.

Yesterday's lore Q&A only served to give me another reason to dislike Venat given that she is the one who saved the three Unsundered despite knowing exactly what they planned to do. In other words, she is directly complicit in the torment of the three Unsundered as well as responsible for the conditions that allowed for every Ascian plot to come to fruition - including the Rejoinings.

I think it was a weird way to tie everything together and although I don't like Venat as a character, I sympathise with those who do. It arguably takes away the agency not only of Venat but multiple other characters and factions. Yet at the end of the day it is what it is.

[Slatersev]

The Zodiark tempering point is honestly so inconsistent in how it is explained and shown that I genuinely choose to just not pay it any further mind beyond it simply aligning the person more towards darkness and thus giving them their dark powers. Emet-selch and Elidibus both at times act in ways that do not serve to further Zodiark's will. They appear more high-functioning and in control of themselves and their decisions than any other tempered person we've seen. Their devotion is far more to their loved ones than Zodiark himself.

I'd previously held a theory that primals of greater power can make their tempering more subtle, as Bahamut's thralls in Midas and Louisoix are both more coherent compared to the tempered of lesser primals such as Ifrit or Lakshmi, but even they exude a stiltedness that makes them shells of their former selves.

Lahabrea is the only one who could fit this bill, but you could just as easily attribute him losing his mind to a result of the tragedy he bore witness to.

To top it all off, when we see Emet-selch again in Ultima Thule, at a point where his soul would have doubtlessly been cleansed from this tempering, he does not make a single mention of regret or ill-judgement on account of it in his decisions. In fact, he only doubles down that his values are unshakable. I really don't think Zodiark's tempering had much of anything to do with this.

In regards to your theory, i’m not sure if it’s the answer you seek but there was an interview with yoshi done a bit before endwalker where he stated a primal can choose how tempered they want their followers to be. He used Thordan as an example in that he didn’t make the knights mindless zombies and instead let them have will i believe.

I mean, we literally had an entire MSQ patch go over this just before EW with Tiamat which explicitly showed and stated that extremely powerful being like Dragons arent effected by tempering to the same extent and can still have will of there own.

That was literally the entire point of that whole thing.

[Shookbeast]

Maybe it’s possible that the so-called “crack” is more of a metaphor. For example, Venat may have been aware of what Azem was up to around the time of the Sundering - and it was through Azem’s actions that Emet and crew escaped. Imagine a scenario where Emet and crew were Azem’s Scions (for better or worse) and just like at the end of Endwalker - Azem makes a personal sacrifice - and beams Emet, Lahabrea, and Elidibus away to safety. (Maybe using an inverse of the Azem power to call friends to them? Azem can also send friends away?)

Azem could “technically” be the crack through which the others escaped.

Then when Emet sees the 14 Azems, all greatly reduced in power post-sundering, he becomes super bummed out as his WOL ages, dies, or gets killed 14 times over. Azem could specifically be the person Emet is most torn up about.

I feel like we’re sleeping a little on the 14 Azems post Sundering. That’s a lot of Azems for Emet to keep track of - and to also conspire with post Sundering.

[thegreatonemal]

Yes, the interview established that the primal can control the degree of tempering - that is, where it's consciously desiring to temper. In Zodiark's case, there are multiple factors pushing against the notion that the tempering actively controlled their wills, the biggest being as you mention, that he lacked such a will. The lopporit suggest it is the power going into him that can cause tempering; and when Emet-Selch discusses it, he frames it in terms of alignment to the primal's dark aether and an urge to spread that aspect. Moreover, he was not created with the simplified rites the Ascians passed down to the beast tribes, which is what causes those summoners to want to spread their zeal. We learnt with Tiamat that even with such rites, the nature of the primal (Bahamut being her consort) meant it wasn't particularly pronounced in her case, although as it was removed her memories flooded back. Over time, tempering appears capable of causing memory/identity loss. So I believe that's why Lahabrea was hit the hardest after 12k years - because he made zero effort to preserve his identity. Elidibus still had his duty to the star and his people, from being a member of the Convocation, and that drove him. His refusal to replenish his memories is to avoid interference with his duty, so I believe in his case it's strength of identity to some degree that helped preserve autonomy. Emet-Selch worked hard to preserve both.

In light of all this, I struggle to see tempering as being particularly relevant, especially to the pre-Sundering Convocation. I suspect they just added it to explain the fanatical behaviour of the likes of Nabriales and Lahabrea. We understand that back then, they were driven by strong desire to want to reunite with those inside Zodiark, and that the ancients prized being able to return to the star, which such a limbo state potentially causing some distress to the souls inside him. Elidibus then emerges from him to mediate (and in the FR version of the SoS dialogue it is spelt out clearly that he does so because the Convocation itself was divided), and we can theorise that he could give voice to the concerns of those souls and prove that the withdrawal is technically feasible. I'm not sure what the invocation of tempering by some adds to any of this, because Zodiark is losing those souls inside him so this act is not strictly beneficial to him - and again, he has no typical primal will and certainly not the beast tribe primal type. The sacrifices of the "new life" are to replenish his aether reserves for the loss of aether he'd suffer, not to add to those reserves.



Jump down to point 2 here.

That's from before they summoned Zodiark They were deciding how best to save the star. This is also when Azem leaves.

Try again.

[Theodric]

That's from before they summoned Zodiark They were deciding how best to save the star. This is also when Azem leaves.

Try again.

I don't think he needs to 'try again' since his sources and the overall context fit very with what Lauront is outlining where Tempering is concerned.

It's also deceptive framing since not all the sources linked in the lengthy post are from before the point of Zodiark's summoning which makes me question if the post was even read on anything but a surface level.

I don't want to unintentionally spoil anything if you're not all caught up with the MSQ's but have you done the story content that Slater is referencing, here:

I mean, we literally had an entire MSQ patch go over this just before EW with Tiamat which explicitly showed and stated that extremely powerful being like Dragons arent effected by tempering to the same extent and can still have will of there own.

That was literally the entire point of that whole thing.

[Rulakir]

On the question of Azem, all I can say is if it were my character, they would not side with her decision to sunder her own, and would instead have tried to find a way to alert their people to the risk present, and if she was being coy, dig deeper.

My headcanon was that Azem helped Emet escape being sundered. So much for that. :P Based on what we've seen of the WoL and Ardbert, both willing to go to great lengths to save their worlds, I can't see Azem having given up on Etheirys so easily. I prefer to think that they were at least trying to find an alternate solution, but were unfortunately on a timeline likely discovering something moments before the sundering for the most dramatic effect.

I know that if I was given credible evidence that I was actually the reincarnation of a famous individual then I would be pretty eager to learn as much about that person as possible.

Given how much people love family trees, DNA tests, ancestry, etc. it does seem odd there's not more interest. Even just the discovery of being sundered would be like telling someone they have several long lost twins. The average person would be interested in finding out more about them as well as who they were when they were 'whole'.

The sundering is just messy. I assume it's a holdover from 1.0, but I've never liked the idea of split souls.

[Absimiliard]

Ah, so it's a conscious choice? That's very interesting. I do wonder in that case why lesser primals tend to make their tempered more mindless zombies, as it seems you can only benefit by having the devotion still clearly present in a more cognizant mind. Definitely something to consider, but it further drives home the point that Zodiark's tempering couldn't have really had much of any relevance, because he quite literally has no will of his own, and certainly not the insight to make such a decision in tempering his summoners.

My money would be on sustenance. Fervent prayers from their tempered can sustain a primal in lieu of consuming huge amounts of aether from their surroundings (or crystals), although most of them seem to opt for both because... well, why not? Those with their own wills intact probably don't focus the entirety of their thoughts on their primal, thereby decreasing the total amount of.... what do they even harvest from prayers, anyway?

[Rannie]

Given how much people love family trees, DNA tests, ancestry, etc. it does seem odd there's not more interest. Even just the discovery of being sundered would be like telling someone they have several long lost twins. The average person would be interested in finding out more about them as well as who they were when they were 'whole'.

The sundering is just messy. I assume it's a holdover from 1.0, but I've never liked the idea of split souls.

One problem though is where would we find this information, we do not as of right now have access to the new world and amaurot is mostly under water off the coast of limsa pretty much... secondly how much of the information on the source survived with the 7 region destroying Calamaties that have hit in 12,000 or more years since said sundering?

And with sundering being a part of 1.0 is unknown the sundering was never mentioned back then and ascians even looked completely different.

@Lauront what does it say for SoS translated from French that the convocation was divided on the third sacrifice? I'm curious to know my French was a failing grade in Highschool for French 1 =P

Edit I'm also having an old person moment and can't remember if some put a translation of it in here yet.