Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[KageTokage]

Honestly, I don't feel like Endwalker needed much to make it at least on par with Shadowbringers.

Its biggest detractors were the awkward pacing and the insanely convoluted time travel/causal loop they decided to use as their lazy resolution to the Hydaelyn/Zodiark conflict. In all seriousness I'm feeling like it was done specifically to avoid having to place too much effort into fleshing out Venat's motives when they could just attempt to justify it as "I did this because the future said so...oh, and dynamis".

[Lucida3b]

Honestly, I don't feel like Endwalker needed much to make it at least on par with Shadowbringers.

Its biggest detractors were the awkward pacing and the insanely convoluted time travel/causal loop they decided to use as their lazy resolution to the Hydaelyn/Zodiark conflict. In all seriousness I'm feeling like it was done specifically to avoid having to place too much effort into fleshing out Venat's motives when they could just attempt to justify it as "I did this because the future said so...oh, and dynamis".

Personally I dont think its the time travel itself is the primary issue, its the things the time travel is utilized for is the biggest issue (After all alexander has a timeloop vs the towers splitting of the timelines)

Which is obviously Venat/Hydealyn and the Sundering as said before, and even then the biggest issue is primarily the literal last 10-20 minutes of Elpis. And Honestly you can kinda see the threads of differing ideas at times if you wanna tinfoil hat slightly, as someone earlier noted on how they could've gone with the Elidibus thing and have Venat not really know who she was anymore. You could argue if there is a trace element of that maybe when Hydealyn had to take a moment to remember the WoL again, which feels a bit odd considering Hydealyns earlier appearance on the boat to sharlayan and the varying messages she does through Krile.

Honestly I feel like some of the apparent pushback outside of the character/story issues is just due to how tight and well written Shadowbringers was, the moment you went to the first it immediately layed out rules and justifications for currency, travel between worlds and several other things in a incredibly tightly well written way, so the sloppiness of parts of Endwalker stand out a lot

[KizuyaKatogami]

Personally I dont think its the time travel itself is the primary issue, its the things the time travel is utilized for is the biggest issue (After all alexander has a timeloop vs the towers splitting of the timelines)

Which is obviously Venat/Hydealyn and the Sundering as said before, and even then the biggest issue is primarily the literal last 10-20 minutes of Elpis. And Honestly you can kinda see the threads of differing ideas at times if you wanna tinfoil hat slightly, as someone earlier noted on how they could've gone with the Elidibus thing and have Venat not really know who she was anymore. You could argue if there is a trace element of that maybe when Hydealyn had to take a moment to remember the WoL again, which feels a bit odd considering Hydealyns earlier appearance on the boat to sharlayan and the varying messages she does through Krile.

Honestly I feel like some of the apparent pushback outside of the character/story issues is just due to how tight and well written Shadowbringers was, the moment you went to the first it immediately layed out rules and justifications for currency, travel between worlds and several other things in a incredibly tightly well written way, so the sloppiness of parts of Endwalker stand out a lot

I think it’s also the fact yknow, this is the ending expansion for a 10+ year arc, and it was delayed heavily. People probably thought they’d be getting the money’s worth and a semi coherent story. What we got was basically a story that the devs were tired of and just tried to wrap things up incredibly quickly with barely any acknowledgement and the loose threads are plentiful.

[Rulakir]

I think it’s also the fact yknow, this is the ending expansion for a 10+ year arc, and it was delayed heavily. People probably thought they’d be getting the money’s worth and a semi coherent story. What we got was basically a story that the devs were tired of and just tried to wrap things up incredibly quickly with barely any acknowledgement and the loose threads are plentiful.

Additionally, it's the fact that the Hydaelyn & Zodiark saga is the foundation of the lore for the world and the team just seems to want to be done with it. Any unanswered questions or unaddressed plot points? Too bad, we're not doing that anymore. Not to mention that despite it being billed as a 10 year arc the Ascians and their motivations were only fleshed out in ShB. It's more like a 2 year story that abruptly came to an end because Yoshi-P specifically seemed to be tired of it since Ishikawa mentioned going to 7.0 or 8.0.

I don't understand it either because the story and its characters were popular. I'd like to know what the team dislikes about it so much that they're in such a rush to do something new when it seems like at least half or more of the playerbase didn't want to be finished with it yet.

[Kozh]

snip

The Ancients life isn't without suffering, it's just their suffering usually is on different level than the sundered. Suffering is constant in life is a fact, but her view of "to live is to suffer" is certainly an ideology, one that the writer believes in and tried to put into the story. Even by using the the Ra-La society as strawmen argument.

Besides, I don't know why "restore our paradise" is "running away from reality", when they're still changed by the Final Days. Sill had experienced the Final Days. They have the means and methods to restore the lives of those sacrificed to Zodiark (even with arguably questionable method), unlike us in real life who can't do that. If you want to talk about "running away from reality" talk to the Ironworks of 8UC timeline who literally made a time travel machine to undo everything.

We have to keep in mind a square is a rectangle, but not all rectangles are squares. The Unsundered were human, as are the sundered. Different yes, but still members of the same group. If someone says “us Hrothgars” or “we Ala Mhigans” they aren’t saying they aren’t part of the same people as every other race.

So we're not her people, got it. Just like how, since we're not the Garleans, we're not Varis's people despite being another human being. Both venat and emet called themselves "the last of my kind/the last of us" after all. The sundered are not venat's group of people. Period.

And yeah, she loveeee them so much she delete her own people because they're not up to her standard and ideal.... In another story, she would be depicted as narcissistic delusional villain.

[EaraGrace]

The Ancients life isn't without suffering, it's just their suffering usually is on different level than the sundered. Suffering is constant in life is a fact, but her view of "to live is to suffer" is certainly an ideology, one that the writer believes in and tried to put into the story. Even by using the the Ra-La society as strawmen argument.

How is it an ideology if it’s a fact? Gravity isn’t an ideology. Death isn’t an ideology. If she said “suffering is amazing” that would be an ideology, and the only thing close to that idea was the line about “true happiness,” which is pretty lacking evidence of its existence if this is supposedly the ideology that led to her Sundering the world. It’s literally a, “don’t worry friends there’s good to be found of this” statement.

And how is it a strawman. Explain exactly what makes it a strawman.

Besides, I don't know why "restore our paradise" is "running away from reality", when they're still changed by the Final Days. Sill had experienced the Final Days. They have the means and methods to restore the lives of those sacrificed to Zodiark (even with arguably questionable method), unlike us in real life who can't do that. If you want to talk about "running away from reality" talk to the Ironworks of 8UC timeline who literally made a time travel machine to undo everything.

…because they were trying to undo every single change from the Final Days? They literally say “there must be a way to restore things to the way they were, to reclaim the perfect paradise we once had.”

The Ironworks group also explicitly say they don’t believe this will undo anything, only allow others to avoid suffering.

So we're not her people, got it. Just like how, since we're not the Garleans, we're not Varis's people despite being another human being. Both venat and emet called themselves "the last of my kind/the last of us" after all. The sundered are not venat's group of people. Period.

And yeah, she loveeee them so much she delete her own people because they're not up to her standard and ideal.... In another story, she would be depicted as narcissistic delusional villain.

Yeah, she totally, certainly thought of us as not “her people.”

When she talked about having faith in mankind’s potential, she must have meant a different arbitrary category of mankind, a definition that just happens to make that part of her speech a contradiction. That makes sense.

And Kozh if you’re going to be bad faith then why bother having this conversation. Or are you just trolling “Venat Stan’s?”

[Kozh]

How is it an ideology if it’s a fact?...

Brinne already fantastically explained what I thought as well about the whole "it's an ideologue". Besides, you also left the rest of the context, aren't you? Her view doesn't stop at "find joy in darkness", but also to "triumph over it", which as Brinne said, she view suffering as something to make someone stronger. Not only that how people see and deal with suffering is subjective, her ideologue also conveniently ignore needless suffering and could come across as elitist.

Speaking of facing suffering, if someone decided to avert their eyes from it and live in denial to keep them sane, what's our right to judge them?

And how is it a strawman. Explain exactly what makes it a strawman.

Because they only show us the end result and ask us to not think about it too much? The Dead Ends is pretty much moral messages condensed into 2-3 lines and crammed on a dungeon. Never mind the "how" and "what about". Not to mention that all the societies of those doomed worlds are just extreme caricature of all things we perceived as "bad". And I don't say this solely for defending the Ancients society, because if Yoshi-p said "yeah, the first/second world is definitely what the sundered world gonna be", then I would question it as well.

…because they were trying to undo every single change from the Final Days? They literally say “there must be a way to restore things to the way they were, to reclaim the perfect paradise we once had.”

So rebuilding their lives is a bad thing now? Sure, they might have get back those who had been sacrificed for Zodiark, but their experience and knowledge of Final Days will still be there. It's not like they want to literally turn back time to erase those event.

The Ironworks group also explicitly say they don’t believe this will undo anything, only allow others to avoid suffering.

And yet it is for the benefit of the Sundered, just like the third sacrifice benefit the Ancients. If ShB follow the same timeloop rule as EW, those action would be seen the same as what the Ancients did when they ask to "reclaim their paradise", but even worse because they 100% erase those suffering and hardship from reality. Nobody to remember it and to learn from it. They're lucky it created new timeline, otherwise I think Hydaelyn would be very dissapointed in their choice.

And Kozh if you’re going to be bad faith then why bother having this conversation. Or are you just trolling “Venat Stan’s?”

You overused that term so much I started to think you're the one having bad faith argument. Could ask the same to you tbh. If you're going to be bad faith and cherry picking what yoshi-p said, why bother having this conversation? Or are you just trolling "the Ancient's stans"?

[KageTokage]

I would've much preferred that there had been some tangible flaw with the whole Zodiark revival scheme that led to the Hydaelyn faction forming due to the Convocation either overlooking or simply not believing it to be true due to coming from the mouth of one of those they had flagged as dissidents due to opposing his summoning in the first place (Or at least I'd assume others would've followed Azem's lead in that regard).

Replacing the Ancient souls that comprised his being with those of other sentient and unwilling sacrifices could've potentially had an unpleasant result, considering how that arcane construct was driven berserk by a grief-stricken soul's influence.

[Jandor]

I do wonder how exactly restoring the Ancient souls used in Zodiarks construction would have worked. After all, Zodiark did do a bit of a trial run by restoring Elidibus, but he didn't restore him as he was, he restored him as a primal.

Would 75% of the population have been primals after the 3rd sacrifice?

[Lucida3b]

It seems it would have been mostly 'taking the fuel out of the tank and putting in some different fuel' so to speak

Which i find a tad dissappoint, to me it in ShB it sounded more like Zodiark was so powerful he would've been able to alter reality to just reconstitute the souls themselves from aether or something.

Honestly I found some of the elaborations disappointing on him, like it sounds like he just put a curtain of aether over the planet as a shield then 'altered the laws of the star' as they described it.