Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[Slatersev]

The Zodiark tempering point is honestly so inconsistent in how it is explained and shown that I genuinely choose to just not pay it any further mind beyond it simply aligning the person more towards darkness and thus giving them their dark powers. Emet-selch and Elidibus both at times act in ways that do not serve to further Zodiark's will. They appear more high-functioning and in control of themselves and their decisions than any other tempered person we've seen. Their devotion is far more to their loved ones than Zodiark himself.

I'd previously held a theory that primals of greater power can make their tempering more subtle, as Bahamut's thralls in Midas and Louisoix are both more coherent compared to the tempered of lesser primals such as Ifrit or Lakshmi, but even they exude a stiltedness that makes them shells of their former selves.

Lahabrea is the only one who could fit this bill, but you could just as easily attribute him losing his mind to a result of the tragedy he bore witness to.

To top it all off, when we see Emet-selch again in Ultima Thule, at a point where his soul would have doubtlessly been cleansed from this tempering, he does not make a single mention of regret or ill-judgement on account of it in his decisions. In fact, he only doubles down that his values are unshakable. I really don't think Zodiark's tempering had much of anything to do with this.

In regards to your theory, i’m not sure if it’s the answer you seek but there was an interview with yoshi done a bit before endwalker where he stated a primal can choose how tempered they want their followers to be. He used Thordan as an example in that he didn’t make the knights mindless zombies and instead let them have will i believe.

I mean, we literally had an entire MSQ patch go over this just before EW with Tiamat which explicitly showed and stated that extremely powerful being like Dragons arent effected by tempering to the same extent and can still have will of there own.

That was literally the entire point of that whole thing.

[Lauront]

Ah, so it's a conscious choice? That's very interesting. I do wonder in that case why lesser primals tend to make their tempered more mindless zombies, as it seems you can only benefit by having the devotion still clearly present in a more cognizant mind. Definitely something to consider, but it further drives home the point that Zodiark's tempering couldn't have really had much of any relevance, because he quite literally has no will of his own, and certainly not the insight to make such a decision in tempering his summoners.

Yes, the interview established that the primal can control the degree of tempering - that is, where it's consciously desiring to temper. In Zodiark's case, there are multiple factors pushing against the notion that the tempering actively controlled their wills, the biggest being as you mention, that he lacked such a will. The lopporit suggest it is the power going into him that can cause tempering; and when Emet-Selch discusses it, he frames it in terms of alignment to the primal's dark aether and an urge to spread that aspect. Moreover, he was not created with the simplified rites the Ascians passed down to the beast tribes, which is what causes those summoners to want to spread their zeal. We learnt with Tiamat that even with such rites, the nature of the primal (Bahamut being her consort) meant it wasn't particularly pronounced in her case, although as it was removed her memories flooded back. Over time, tempering appears capable of causing memory/identity loss. So I believe that's why Lahabrea was hit the hardest after 12k years - because he made zero effort to preserve his identity. Elidibus still had his duty to the star and his people, from being a member of the Convocation, and that drove him. His refusal to replenish his memories is to avoid interference with his duty, so I believe in his case it's strength of identity to some degree that helped preserve autonomy. Emet-Selch worked hard to preserve both.

In light of all this, I struggle to see tempering as being particularly relevant, especially to the pre-Sundering Convocation. I suspect they just added it to explain the fanatical behaviour of the likes of Nabriales and Lahabrea. We understand that back then, they were driven by strong desire to want to reunite with those inside Zodiark, and that the ancients prized being able to return to the star, which such a limbo state potentially causing some distress to the souls inside him. Elidibus then emerges from him to mediate (and in the FR version of the SoS dialogue it is spelt out clearly that he does so because the Convocation itself was divided), and we can theorise that he could give voice to the concerns of those souls and prove that the withdrawal is technically feasible. I'm not sure what the invocation of tempering by some adds to any of this, because Zodiark is losing those souls inside him so this act is not strictly beneficial to him - and again, he has no typical primal will and certainly not the beast tribe primal type. The sacrifices of the "new life" are to replenish his aether reserves for the loss of aether he'd suffer, not to add to those reserves.

Tempering bends your thoughts to what the primal wants it does not always turn you into a mindless person who can only mutter their god's name. The Heaveanward, the Serpent Revaers, Cid's father, the twins grandfather, Nael and the tempered Ala Mhigan soldiers from 4.1 are all examples of this. The conovation was for the sacrifices it was everyone else who debated and it was these fierce debates that led Elidibus to draw himself out to mediate.

Jump down to point 2 here.

[thegreatonemal]

Yes, the interview established that the primal can control the degree of tempering - that is, where it's consciously desiring to temper. In Zodiark's case, there are multiple factors pushing against the notion that the tempering actively controlled their wills, the biggest being as you mention, that he lacked such a will. The lopporit suggest it is the power going into him that can cause tempering; and when Emet-Selch discusses it, he frames it in terms of alignment to the primal's dark aether and an urge to spread that aspect. Moreover, he was not created with the simplified rites the Ascians passed down to the beast tribes, which is what causes those summoners to want to spread their zeal. We learnt with Tiamat that even with such rites, the nature of the primal (Bahamut being her consort) meant it wasn't particularly pronounced in her case, although as it was removed her memories flooded back. Over time, tempering appears capable of causing memory/identity loss. So I believe that's why Lahabrea was hit the hardest after 12k years - because he made zero effort to preserve his identity. Elidibus still had his duty to the star and his people, from being a member of the Convocation, and that drove him. His refusal to replenish his memories is to avoid interference with his duty, so I believe in his case it's strength of identity to some degree that helped preserve autonomy. Emet-Selch worked hard to preserve both.

In light of all this, I struggle to see tempering as being particularly relevant, especially to the pre-Sundering Convocation. I suspect they just added it to explain the fanatical behaviour of the likes of Nabriales and Lahabrea. We understand that back then, they were driven by strong desire to want to reunite with those inside Zodiark, and that the ancients prized being able to return to the star, which such a limbo state potentially causing some distress to the souls inside him. Elidibus then emerges from him to mediate (and in the FR version of the SoS dialogue it is spelt out clearly that he does so because the Convocation itself was divided), and we can theorise that he could give voice to the concerns of those souls and prove that the withdrawal is technically feasible. I'm not sure what the invocation of tempering by some adds to any of this, because Zodiark is losing those souls inside him so this act is not strictly beneficial to him - and again, he has no typical primal will and certainly not the beast tribe primal type. The sacrifices of the "new life" are to replenish his aether reserves for the loss of aether he'd suffer, not to add to those reserves.



Jump down to point 2 here.

That's from before they summoned Zodiark They were deciding how best to save the star. This is also when Azem leaves.

Try again.

[Theodric]

That's from before they summoned Zodiark They were deciding how best to save the star. This is also when Azem leaves.

Try again.

I don't think he needs to 'try again' since his sources and the overall context fit very with what Lauront is outlining where Tempering is concerned.

It's also deceptive framing since not all the sources linked in the lengthy post are from before the point of Zodiark's summoning which makes me question if the post was even read on anything but a surface level.

I don't want to unintentionally spoil anything if you're not all caught up with the MSQ's but have you done the story content that Slater is referencing, here:

I mean, we literally had an entire MSQ patch go over this just before EW with Tiamat which explicitly showed and stated that extremely powerful being like Dragons arent effected by tempering to the same extent and can still have will of there own.

That was literally the entire point of that whole thing.

[thegreatonemal]

I don't think he needs to 'try again' since his sources and the overall context fit very with what Lauront is outlining where Tempering is concerned.

It's also deceptive framing since not all the sources linked in the lengthy post are from before the point of Zodiark's summoning which makes me question if the post was even read on anything but a surface level.

I don't want to unintentionally spoil anything if you're not all caught up with the MSQ's but have you done the story content that Slater is referencing, here:

You may think that but you'd be incorrect given the context. The debate is over if they sacrifice more lives to bring back the people who gave up their lives. Nothing here suggest that the tempered are resisting Zodiark.
I'm caught up on the msq and comparing a dragon to ancients is not the best comparison. She is one of the strongest beings on the planet and we fully don't understand how they work. Also this person is leaving out that Tiamat didn't look to the primal as a god but an equal partner which they speculate why she retains all of her will. This is not the case with the ancients. The only reason she actually wants to stay locked up is just in case meeting the primal again causes her to fall under its control. It's out of an abundance of cation

[Theodric]

You may think that but you'd be incorrect given the context.

The sources Lauront provided are not saying what you are portraying them as. You're free to read into them differently but the sources provided it make it pretty clear that Zodiark's Tempering was not the same sort of Tempering as that which the likes of Leviathan and Lakshmi were inflicting upon their followers, nor were the Convocation lacking the ability to make decisions that went against what Elidibus/Zodiark desired. We see this frequently throughout the game, such as when Nabriales gets hasty and puts his own plan into action and again when Fandaniel decides to hijack Zodiark. There's also Emet accompanying the player character and Scions throughout Norvrandt where he gives them information and even brings Y'shtola back from the 'dead'. None of which he would be able to do if he were bound entirely to Zodiark's will.

Perhaps most important, however, is the aspects in Lauront's post that outline that the Convocation itself was divided over how to handle the way forward where saving Etheirys was concerned. Again, something that would not happen if they were simply interested in feeding souls to Zodiark and nothing else. Elidibus took his leave of Zodiark and proved that, yes, actually, the Ancients really could bring back their loved ones.

They were also under no obligation to go along with what Venat was suggesting. We already know - thanks to hindsight - that her opposition to the third round of sacrifices was not based on the act of sacrifice itself so much as Meteion's report. Something she failed to outline to the Convocation in the first place. Perhaps if she had been open and honest she might have been able to convince her people to take a different path, though we'll never know as she never bothered to make every effort to save her civilisation and species from extinction. In actuality, she inflicted genocide upon every last man, woman and child amongst the Ancients and stripped away everything that made them into them. Then proceeded to support further acts of genocide in the name of her 'grand plan' which led to untold levels of suffering across the board.

[Lauront]

You may think that but you'd be incorrect given the context. The debate is over if they sacrifice more lives to bring back the people who gave up their lives. Nothing here suggest that the tempered are resisting Zodiark.

I am going to quote it and you can tell me what is "incorrect given the context" here:

Elidibus : Le Concile avait perdu sa cohésion... Face à l'anéantissement, les avis divergeaient sur la marche à suivre pour sauver notre planète…
= “The Council had lost its cohesion… Faced with annihilation, opinions differed on the way forward to save our planet…”
Elidibus : Ça ne leur ressemblait pas... Plus que jamais, ils avaient besoin d'Elidibus... Ils avaient besoin de moi... Alors, je me suis détaché de Zordiarche pour voler à leur secours...
= “It wasn’t like them… More than ever, they needed Elidibus… They needed me… So, I broke away from Zodiark to come to their aid…”
Elidibus : C'est ça... Chacun d'eux, je les aimais plus que tout... !
= “That’s it… Each of them, I loved them more than anything…!”

The scene from SoS it relates to is this. The corresponding incident detailed in Ere our curtain falls is this. This dialogue relates to when he had already become Zodiark, as per the bolded (and as per the EN equivalent), and the aforementioned loss of cohesion (strange if they were all a tempered hivemind as you claim) along with a divergence in opinions is what motivated him to withdraw himself - he even mentions detaching from him, in case that "faced with annihilation" is confusing you (it is meant in the sense of having experienced annihilation.)

You have claimed now repeatedly that others are "lying and twisting" things, and claimed emphatically that their tempering was responsible for their stance in spite of not a single source touching on this in respect of the sacrifices, as well as making allusions to other instances of tempering which are 1) either disanalogous to Zodiark as primals or 2) simply not consistent with recent lore (e.g. the Heavensward and their tempering.)

I'm caught up on the msq and comparing a dragon to ancients is not the best comparison. She is one of the strongest beings on the planet

Oh, you mean like one of those beings it took 8 champions, a further soul rejoining and loads of Lightwarden light to actually fell? Unsundered ancients have souls on a similar order of power. And we don't know all the ins and outs about them, either. Plus, as I pointed out, Zodiark was not summoned using the sort of rites that went into Bahamut and lacks the usual primal will. Tempering over time can change a person, especially if they fail to preserve both identity and memory, which is why taking what some of the Ascians were like 12k years later to infer what they were like just after summoning Zodiark is a silly idea.

Second, the Ancients already have the power to overcome despair. Sacrificing half your population requires no small feat amount of conviction. Dynamis utilize all kind of energy after all.

Indeed:

Wandering Minstrel
Oho, what manner of thrilling adventure might this be?
Good gods, a battle on the moon with Zodiark, eldest and mightiest of primals... I pride myself on my imagination, but your feats transcend aught my mind could possibly conceive.

Against all odds, you struck down the puissant being, yet triumph quickly turned to tragedy, for Zodiark's fall proved to be the trigger for the Final Days...

...Yes. Yes, the words well up within me, Pray lend them an ear.

Born of ancient men, a divinity was freed,♪
Their hopes unrequited, they knew no reprieve.♪

Born of mortal men, a champion did arise,♪
Ascending to the heavens, ruination to defy.♪

That the ancients should sacrifice half their number to save the star... The strength of their resolve makes me tremble in admiration.

Even as it saddens me to think that one of their own would seek to lay it all to waste, so deep was his despair...

Not having lived their lives, I feel decidedly unworthy to speak of their hearts. Better that the whole truth remain with you, and you alone.

Let it suffice for me to honor a fragment of their hopes and dreams in song, that their lives and sacrifice may ever be remembered.

[Shookbeast]

Maybe it’s possible that the so-called “crack” is more of a metaphor. For example, Venat may have been aware of what Azem was up to around the time of the Sundering - and it was through Azem’s actions that Emet and crew escaped. Imagine a scenario where Emet and crew were Azem’s Scions (for better or worse) and just like at the end of Endwalker - Azem makes a personal sacrifice - and beams Emet, Lahabrea, and Elidibus away to safety. (Maybe using an inverse of the Azem power to call friends to them? Azem can also send friends away?)

Azem could “technically” be the crack through which the others escaped.

Then when Emet sees the 14 Azems, all greatly reduced in power post-sundering, he becomes super bummed out as his WOL ages, dies, or gets killed 14 times over. Azem could specifically be the person Emet is most torn up about.

I feel like we’re sleeping a little on the 14 Azems post Sundering. That’s a lot of Azems for Emet to keep track of - and to also conspire with post Sundering.

[Rulakir]

On the question of Azem, all I can say is if it were my character, they would not side with her decision to sunder her own, and would instead have tried to find a way to alert their people to the risk present, and if she was being coy, dig deeper.

My headcanon was that Azem helped Emet escape being sundered. So much for that. :P Based on what we've seen of the WoL and Ardbert, both willing to go to great lengths to save their worlds, I can't see Azem having given up on Etheirys so easily. I prefer to think that they were at least trying to find an alternate solution, but were unfortunately on a timeline likely discovering something moments before the sundering for the most dramatic effect.

I know that if I was given credible evidence that I was actually the reincarnation of a famous individual then I would be pretty eager to learn as much about that person as possible.

Given how much people love family trees, DNA tests, ancestry, etc. it does seem odd there's not more interest. Even just the discovery of being sundered would be like telling someone they have several long lost twins. The average person would be interested in finding out more about them as well as who they were when they were 'whole'.

The sundering is just messy. I assume it's a holdover from 1.0, but I've never liked the idea of split souls.

[Rosenstrauch]

The sundering is just messy. I assume it's a holdover from 1.0, but I've never liked the idea of split souls.

From what I recall, the Sundering first came up in Heavensward. Prior to that, there was no mention of it. It's possible that it came up in 1.0, but I have my doubts.

My headcanon was that Azem helped Emet escape being sundered.

That was my headcanon as well, with the addition that Azem was also the one leading the arguments against further sacrifices rather than Venat.

I made this distinction in my head to explain why Emet-Selch seemed to believe one thing about her motives while the recording in Anamnesis Anyder showed her and her followers expressing very different motives. There was definitely room in the story for Emet-Selch to attribute Azem's actions to her, or believe they were cooperating when they actually weren't.

Being wrong on both accounts has left me a bit annoyed, to say the least.

As it stands, Azem looks like they've just been sitting on their thumbs the whole time, doing absolutely nothing to avoid upsetting the playerbase by assigning a choice they don't agree with to that character. Never mind that doing nothing is also a consciously made choice.

And Venat? It's not impossible for a character to hold multiple conflicting views. But the impression I get at this point is that she's simply a very two-faced individual—it would go a long way towards explaining her outright lying and extreme ends-justify-means behavior.