Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[tokinokanatae]

They had reason to though. To accept Suffering as an inevitable and necessary part of defeating Meteion would mean is a profound change, and yet more would be required of the Ancients. I’m gnot saying they would have to Sunder everything like what happened, but some form of change in the same vein would be required. They need to both lessen aetheric density and face mortality, and thus a lesser Sundering seems logical, albeit more controlled and structured I’m sure.

As always comes up when people put this forth as a valid option—and what I was alluding to, possibly too vaguely—they have no way of knowing that Meteion exists as a threat.

No one takes precautions for a threat they don’t know exists. If an earthquake happens, we modify our buildings to better withstand the quake and build new ones with increased protections, not assume it is actually the beginning of a large scale attack from the dread Pararamuktipu from another dimension! (A being who can only be defeated if we actually leave our city in ruins, move to the countryside, and train ourselves to do handstands several hours a day!)

The Ancients were amazing at sacrificing themselves for the greater good of the star. Just imagine if that’s what was asked of them in the first place, instead of killing the 25% that remained because they didn’t offer to immediately do it again.

[EaraGrace]

There was no actual proof high aetheric density makes someone incapable of utilizing Dynamis. That was Venat's assumption, but it wasn't able to be substantiated before the Sundering. The WoL is 8/14ths rejoined and utilizes Dynamis far better than just about anyone. Merging with Ardbert actually seemed to increase their compatibility with it, not decreased it. It seems quite probably the Ancients couldn't utilize it because of how their emotions are handled. Beyond that, the lack of suffering in their society simply left them ill prepared for the kind of emotional turmoil one needs before they can access it.

Then allow me to rephrase. Their is no logical, rational, justified, believable, evidenced reason to believe they could affect Dynamis. Hermes was the only Ancient we know of to effect change on the Elpis flower, and even then he needed Meteion to control it. When Meteion panics and flees, no one save us could hear her cries or find where she went. The other Ancients that know of Dynamis ignore it entirely because of how useless it is to them.

Being 8/14th rejoined leaves the WoL with roughly 57.14% the aetheric density of their Ancient counterpart. For the rest of the Scions the amount is a straight 50%. That is a significant decrease in aetheric quality. Meteion herself excitedly proclaims we’re like her even with Emet giving us aether to return us to our natural state (or a close approximation).

All of this points to the one conclusion. We don’t have word of god that this is 100% fact, but come on.

As always comes up when people put this forth as a valid option—and what I was alluding to, possibly too vaguely—they have no way of knowing that Meteion exists as a threat.

No one takes precautions for a threat they don’t know exists. If an earthquake happens, we modify our buildings to better withstand the quake and build new ones with increased protections, not assume it is actually the beginning of a large scale attack from the dread Pararamuktipu from another dimension! (A being who can only be defeated if we actually leave our city in ruins, move to the countryside, and train ourselves to do handstands several hours a day!)

The Ancients were amazing at sacrificing themselves for the greater good of the star. Just imagine if that’s what was asked of them in the first place, instead of killing the 25% that remained because they didn’t offer to immediately do it again.

Accepting death as an inevitability, and learning to deal with pain does not require knowing of Meteion to accept. If Meteion wasn’t there that truth would still exist.

And on whether they were good at sacrifice: They showed a willingness to sacrifice themselves, with conditions. They’re souls we’re still to remain intact even after creating Zodiark, the sacrifice was designed specifically to do that. And even then, those left behind labored to bring them back at the sacrifice of innocent lives.

Now before someone misunderstands, I’m not saying they are evil or weak for doing so, far from it. They are, in fact, just like us. Whether that means they are good sacrificing themselves is up to you.

[Lauront]

Not entirely correct. Emet-Selch displayed a tendency to do whatever he wanted well before that point, even actively aiding us during Shadowbringers. That deal with the wardens' light wasn't a lie; he really was ready to give up on his plans and roll with things as they were if the WoL could contain it. Prior to this, there was at least one other time he was willing to throw in the proverbial towel, but the death of his mortal son shook him badly enough that he resumed.

Elidibus showed more than a little bit of free will as well. Quite a few of the things he did were directly antithetical to his stated purpose, and we know now that he did those things more or less just because he wanted to. What Elidibus lacked was his memories, but he seems to have gotten most - or at least some - of those back after his defeat at the end of the Seat of Sacrifice.

Lahabrea... well, Lahabrea actually seems to be pretty darned tempered at first glance. Unfortunately, we can't tell how much of it is tempering and how much is just him being nuts from 12,000 years of misery and body hopping. That being said, we know the Convocation was split when it came to the second and third sets of sacrifices to Zodiark. They must not have been too tempered if they were arguing over whether or not feeding him more souls was a good idea. Bearing this in mind, it seems like Lahabrea's fanaticism is probably the result of him being off his rocker.

I believe it's simply the effect of not preserving memories/identity (this is where the body hopping factored in) plus tempering plus 12k years of toil. Emet-Selch is contrasted with Lahabrea for going to great pains to preserve his sense of identity and memory, and Elidibus had his overarching commitment to his duty driving him in spite of memory degradation. Lahabrea thus seems to have been hit the worst of the three. Tempering appears to be a non-factor in their pre-sundering decisions based on existing lore sources.

There was no actual proof high aetheric density makes someone incapable of utilizing Dynamis. That was Venat's assumption, but it wasn't able to be substantiated before the Sundering. The WoL is 8/14ths rejoined and utilizes Dynamis far better than just about anyone. Merging with Ardbert actually seemed to increase their compatibility with it, not decreased it. It seems quite probably the Ancients couldn't utilize it because of how their emotions are handled. Beyond that, the lack of suffering in their society simply left them ill prepared for the kind of emotional turmoil one needs before they can access it.

I'd actually disagree on this front. Hermes does put forward his view that higher aetheric density prevents easy interaction with entelechies. While they had managed to eliminate most ills in their world, it is clear from Venat's words and even some of the interactions in Amaurot that they were acquainted with it in the past. I'm not aware of emotional toil being a prerequisite to interact with it - they simply capture predominant emotional states. If they did not know suffering for a while before the Final Days, they certainly knew it after, and even then the despair waves could not affect them; it only affected their creations.

Nonetheless, it does not preclude them from investigating methods to allow for its manipulation through proxies, selective sundering of their own (vs the entire star and not 14x over), exploration of extending the applications of the suppression fields in Ktisis Hyperboreia etc.

[Rannie]

Didn't Hermes say during the scene in elpis with the flower the first time that beings with the lower aetheric density would be able to interact with Dynamis but it didn't make them an entethingy (can't spell and watching vox machina right now so not in the game to pull up that cutscene)

And then in the same cutscene that anyone with a higher density wouldn't even be able to due to something canceling it out or canceling each other out?

[Absimiliard]

Then allow me to rephrase. Their is no logical, rational, justified, believable, evidenced reason to believe they could affect Dynamis. Hermes was the only Ancient we know of to effect change on the Elpis flower, and even then he needed Meteion to control it. When Meteion panics and flees, no one save us could hear her cries or find where she went. The other Ancients that know of Dynamis ignore it entirely because of how useless it is to them.

Being 8/14th rejoined leaves the WoL with roughly 57.14% the aetheric density of their Ancient counterpart. For the rest of the Scions the amount is a straight 50%. That is a significant decrease in aetheric quality. Meteion herself excitedly proclaims we’re like her even with Emet giving us aether to return us to our natural state (or a close approximation).

All of this points to the one conclusion. We don’t have word of god that this is 100% fact, but come on.

Yes, and Dynamis is shown to be easy for the WoL to utilize at 57.14% of their original aetheric density. So easy, in fact, that it's simply a natural part of how they fight. If an over half-rejoined Azem can utilize Dynamis to such a great extent without any apparent difficulty, why would we assume a complete Azem would be completely unable to wield it?

I'd actually disagree on this front. Hermes does put forward his view that higher aetheric density prevents easy interaction with entelechies. While they had managed to eliminate most ills in their world, it is clear from Venat's words and even some of the interactions in Amaurot that they were acquainted with it in the past. I'm not aware of emotional toil being a prerequisite to interact with it - they simply capture predominant emotional states. If they did not know suffering for a while before the Final Days, they certainly knew it after, and even then the despair waves could not affect them; it only affected their creations..

Correct. Hermes does put forward his view that it prevents easy interaction. On this we agree. Ditto for the Ancients having suffered prior to the Final Days, as all people do, and of them becoming well acquainted with suffering after the fact. Where I don't agree is the idea that it is 100% impossible for someone with an Ancient's aetheric density to interact with Dynamis, as this makes little to no sense based on what we've seen of Dynamis thus far. Limited interaction? Certainly, but it zero interaction is stretching it.

[EaraGrace]

Yes, and Dynamis is shown to be easy for the WoL to utilize at 57.14% of their original aetheric density. So easy, in fact, that it's simply a natural part of how they fight. If an over half-rejoined Azem can utilize Dynamis to such a great extent without any apparent difficulty, why would we assume a complete Azem would be completely unable to wield it?

…because they’re shown not to? Like why couldn’t they hear Meteion if they could?

Edit: And actually, if this is true, then why were the Sundered in danger of being consumed by dynamis while the Ancients weren’t?

[Cleretic]

Didn't Hermes say during the scene in elpis with the flower the first time that beings with the lower aetheric density would be able to interact with Dynamis but it didn't make them an entethingy (can't spell and watching vox machina right now so not in the game to pull up that cutscene)

And then in the same cutscene that anyone with a higher density wouldn't even be able to due to something canceling it out or canceling each other out?

Yes. the more aether dense someone is, the more they can't interact with dynamis. This is why the End of Days hit Amaurot the way it did; the Ancients being so dense meant they were fine, but their less dense creations turned--and then killed their summoners.

Unsundered Azem would have been exactly the same: pretty boned the moment they tried to make anything. On top of that, the inability to interact with dynamis means that if they got to Ultima Thule (itself not exactly a small task) they would've been unable to do anything except 'suffocate and die in space' the way we almost did.

[Lauront]

Correct. Hermes does put forward his view that it prevents easy interaction. On this we agree. Ditto for the Ancients having suffered prior to the Final Days, as all people do, and of them becoming well acquainted with suffering after the fact. Where I don't agree is the idea that it is 100% impossible for someone with an Ancient's aetheric density to interact with Dynamis, as this makes little to no sense based on what we've seen of Dynamis thus far. Limited interaction? Certainly, but it zero interaction is stretching it.

Yes, it's clearly wrong that interaction is impossible, because Hermes could turn a flower dark due to the extremity of his negative sentiments. Partly the way it's worded in EN is somewhat to blame for this interpretation but we can use our eyes and see that with extreme enough emotions, they can interact with entelechies.

[Absimiliard]

Edit: And actually, if this is true, then why were the Sundered in danger of being consumed by dynamis while the Ancients weren’t?

Their aetheric density. I am not disputing that higher aetheric density makes it more difficult to interact with Dynamis, extremely so in fact. Enough so that merely having such high aetheric density prevented the Ancients from being transformed. What I am asserting is that literal zero ability for the Ancients to interact with Dynamis makes no sense. As intelligent as they were, it seems rather shortsighted to assume they wouldn't find a workaround.

Yes, it's clearly wrong that interaction is impossible, because Hermes could turn a flower dark due to the extremity of his negative sentiments. Partly the way it's worded in EN is somewhat to blame for this interpretation but we can use our eyes and see that with extreme enough emotions, they can interact with entelechies.

Also this. Especially this.

[Rannie]

Yes, it's clearly wrong that interaction is impossible, because Hermes could turn a flower dark due to the extremity of his negative sentiments. Partly the way it's worded in EN is somewhat to blame for this interpretation but we can use our eyes and see that with extreme enough emotions, they can interact with entelechies.

I would ask then how extreme in emotions and how many of them would be able to go to that type of extreme just to fight off Meteion. Seeing as how for most of the other Ancients couldn't manipulate it and even when Meteion did attack during the final days it warped the creation magicks itself as opposed to the Ancients.

Edit: I'm curious so that's why I am asking ^_^