Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[Absimiliard]

Then allow me to rephrase. Their is no logical, rational, justified, believable, evidenced reason to believe they could affect Dynamis. Hermes was the only Ancient we know of to effect change on the Elpis flower, and even then he needed Meteion to control it. When Meteion panics and flees, no one save us could hear her cries or find where she went. The other Ancients that know of Dynamis ignore it entirely because of how useless it is to them.

Being 8/14th rejoined leaves the WoL with roughly 57.14% the aetheric density of their Ancient counterpart. For the rest of the Scions the amount is a straight 50%. That is a significant decrease in aetheric quality. Meteion herself excitedly proclaims we’re like her even with Emet giving us aether to return us to our natural state (or a close approximation).

All of this points to the one conclusion. We don’t have word of god that this is 100% fact, but come on.

Yes, and Dynamis is shown to be easy for the WoL to utilize at 57.14% of their original aetheric density. So easy, in fact, that it's simply a natural part of how they fight. If an over half-rejoined Azem can utilize Dynamis to such a great extent without any apparent difficulty, why would we assume a complete Azem would be completely unable to wield it?

I'd actually disagree on this front. Hermes does put forward his view that higher aetheric density prevents easy interaction with entelechies. While they had managed to eliminate most ills in their world, it is clear from Venat's words and even some of the interactions in Amaurot that they were acquainted with it in the past. I'm not aware of emotional toil being a prerequisite to interact with it - they simply capture predominant emotional states. If they did not know suffering for a while before the Final Days, they certainly knew it after, and even then the despair waves could not affect them; it only affected their creations..

Correct. Hermes does put forward his view that it prevents easy interaction. On this we agree. Ditto for the Ancients having suffered prior to the Final Days, as all people do, and of them becoming well acquainted with suffering after the fact. Where I don't agree is the idea that it is 100% impossible for someone with an Ancient's aetheric density to interact with Dynamis, as this makes little to no sense based on what we've seen of Dynamis thus far. Limited interaction? Certainly, but it zero interaction is stretching it.

[EaraGrace]

Yes, and Dynamis is shown to be easy for the WoL to utilize at 57.14% of their original aetheric density. So easy, in fact, that it's simply a natural part of how they fight. If an over half-rejoined Azem can utilize Dynamis to such a great extent without any apparent difficulty, why would we assume a complete Azem would be completely unable to wield it?

…because they’re shown not to? Like why couldn’t they hear Meteion if they could?

Edit: And actually, if this is true, then why were the Sundered in danger of being consumed by dynamis while the Ancients weren’t?

[Absimiliard]

Edit: And actually, if this is true, then why were the Sundered in danger of being consumed by dynamis while the Ancients weren’t?

Their aetheric density. I am not disputing that higher aetheric density makes it more difficult to interact with Dynamis, extremely so in fact. Enough so that merely having such high aetheric density prevented the Ancients from being transformed. What I am asserting is that literal zero ability for the Ancients to interact with Dynamis makes no sense. As intelligent as they were, it seems rather shortsighted to assume they wouldn't find a workaround.

Yes, it's clearly wrong that interaction is impossible, because Hermes could turn a flower dark due to the extremity of his negative sentiments. Partly the way it's worded in EN is somewhat to blame for this interpretation but we can use our eyes and see that with extreme enough emotions, they can interact with entelechies.

Also this. Especially this.

[EaraGrace]

Their aetheric density. I am not disputing that higher aetheric density makes it more difficult to interact with Dynamis, extremely so in fact. Enough so that merely having such high aetheric density prevented the Ancients from being transformed. What I am asserting is that literal zero ability for the Ancients to interact with Dynamis makes no sense. As intelligent as they were, it seems rather shortsighted to assume they wouldn't find a workaround.

If you’re ok with a compromise, then let’s agree that the Ancients were not able to control Dynamis in any way that would give them a means to fight Meteion. This means they would have to either reduce their aetheric density or create other beings to fight for them, which has its own problems.

[Lauront]

Correct. Hermes does put forward his view that it prevents easy interaction. On this we agree. Ditto for the Ancients having suffered prior to the Final Days, as all people do, and of them becoming well acquainted with suffering after the fact. Where I don't agree is the idea that it is 100% impossible for someone with an Ancient's aetheric density to interact with Dynamis, as this makes little to no sense based on what we've seen of Dynamis thus far. Limited interaction? Certainly, but it zero interaction is stretching it.

Yes, it's clearly wrong that interaction is impossible, because Hermes could turn a flower dark due to the extremity of his negative sentiments. Partly the way it's worded in EN is somewhat to blame for this interpretation but we can use our eyes and see that with extreme enough emotions, they can interact with entelechies.

[Rannie]

Yes, it's clearly wrong that interaction is impossible, because Hermes could turn a flower dark due to the extremity of his negative sentiments. Partly the way it's worded in EN is somewhat to blame for this interpretation but we can use our eyes and see that with extreme enough emotions, they can interact with entelechies.

I would ask then how extreme in emotions and how many of them would be able to go to that type of extreme just to fight off Meteion. Seeing as how for most of the other Ancients couldn't manipulate it and even when Meteion did attack during the final days it warped the creation magicks itself as opposed to the Ancients.

Edit: I'm curious so that's why I am asking ^_^

[Absimiliard]

I would ask then how extreme in emotions and how many of them would be able to go to that type of extreme just to fight off Meteion. Seeing as how for most of the other Ancients couldn't manipulate it and even when Meteion did attack during the final days it warped the creation magicks itself as opposed to the Ancients.

Edit: I'm curious so that's why I am asking ^_^

If you’re ok with a compromise, then let’s agree that the Ancients were not able to control Dynamis in any way that would give them a means to fight Meteion. This means they would have to either reduce their aetheric density or create other beings to fight for them, which has its own problems.

The challenge in dealing with Meteion lies not in fighting her but in reaching her in the first place. One requires Dynamis to traverse the stars, as it were. The vastness of space is filled mostly with it, not aether. Ultima Thule itself was likewise shown to require Dynamis to give form, although Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus seemingly alleviated this problem with their brief appearance, so perhaps a workaround could be found there. It's clear creation magicks still function in Ultima Thule. So, while I'm pretty sure Meteion's restored hope is what caused the area to no longer need the Scions to maintain its habitable state, this does at least indicate the possibility of being able to do something if they could get there.

At any rate, we can at least bank on aether being able to harm Meteion. After all, most of the WoL's abilities utilize aether, not Dynamis, and inflicted damage just fine.

[Rannie]

The challenge in dealing with Meteion lies not in fighting her but in reaching her in the first place. One requires Dynamis to traverse the stars, as it were. The vastness of space is filled mostly with it, not aether. Ultima Thule itself was likewise shown to require Dynamis to give form, although Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus seemingly alleviated this problem with their brief appearance, so perhaps a workaround could be found there. It's clear creation magicks still function in Ultima Thule. So, while I'm pretty sure Meteion's restored hope is what caused the area to no longer need the Scions to maintain its habitable state, it at least opens possibilities.

At any rate, we can already bank on aether being able to harm Meteion at the very least. After all, most of the WoL's abilities utilize aether, not Dynamis, and inflicted damage just fine.

Hmm I almost wonder about that, it may possibly be more game play and story segregation for our fight with Meteion as endsinger.. though I wouldn't rule that out as a possibility mind you. However, it would be fair to point out that if it hadn't been for our interactions with Dynamis we would have been killed by Meteion, what it would have done to an Ancient, on the other hand is a mystery to me.