Sundering stuff established in the Q&A

[polyphonica]

As far as I am concerned, this undermines any sweeping reading of the claim as amounting to an assertion from Emet that the ancients would've never been able to achieve all this even had circumstances been different (i.e. she spilled the beans.)

Well, I think the rest of the context before that is important too. First he blames Hermes for making him forget; that's the root of it all. Then he laments the 12k years of suffering he had to endure, and says he'll give Venat no thanks for her role in orchestrating that... although he acknowledges that their methods wouldn't have gotten humanity to this point. These "methods" are basically what he's been doing these last 12k years -- trying to sacrifice more life to Zodiark to bring back their past. They tried already to stop Meteion in the past and failed in their "fair chance" (according to Hermes's rules, anyway). Venat and the WoL were always the sort of Plan B that Emet-Selch himself helped to orchestrate in Elpis (although he forgot that he did). He obviously has a huge benefit of hindsight now to see that the ancients were misguided from the start, and so they never got the point of what Venat was doing and why.

The "spilling the beans" option was always there, but a big risk. Venat had one good lead of a possible alternate solution if the Ancients failed, which was the WoL. She herself explained the risk of getting Emet-Selch, who was on the convocation, involved, which could result in Hermes being thrown off the Convocation (at best, or retaliation at worse) which would deprive humanity of probably the most useful player they could have on their side given his research, and could also jeopardize the one other lead they had. So it's basically a two-pronged plan: hope the Convocation is successful and make sure all the best minds are working on that, but protect the backup plan so that you can execute it if need be.

So yeah, if someone were to make a sweeping statement like "there's no possible conceivable way the Ancients could have ever figured out a solution on their own," that's obviously wrong. Hermes himself created Meteion after all, so even without being able to directly manipulate dynamis, they could create more life that did (in a way other than sundering). If it weren't for Hermes's gambit, the memory wipe, and the knowledge of the future Venat had through us, they might have come up with other options. But yeah, the issue for Venat is that straying from the path could mean closing that door, and she at least knew for sure that there was a chance with the WoL.

I guess, in other words, the Convocation's job was Plan A, and Venat's job was Plan B. You're criticizing her for not exploring Plans C (through Z), but if she did that she might have forfeited Plan B. Whatever she did was taking an unbelievable risk, so she chose the largely-known path rather than the unknown one. And yeah, she deserves both criticism and acknowledgement for it, which is what Emet-Selch offered.

[Lauront]

*snip*

I think we're in broad agreement on how to interpret his comment, in that case.

[Kozh]

Some of you really twist yourself into knots trying to dislike Venat, to the point where a good number of you are straight up lying about stuff to make it seem like she was worshiped without question especially once it came to light what she was and what she had to do. She herself agonized over the choice she had to make, didn't know if it would even be enough and came up with a back up plan that would have been for nothing given our foe's actual endgame.

Given the circumstances and the nature of our foe sundering was the only viable option to her considering her most of her people were set onto a different course. the leaders of which couldn't say no and change paths even if they wanted too. Ya know, tempered an all that.

Stop gaslighting people, it's rude. Tempered? Who's now twisting stuff? Tempered was not an issue since Emet still retain the ability to help us "free" Elidibus from his burden.

Sorry not sorry that some of us can't help but dislike Venat, maybe if the writers didn't make her the biggest idiot, I would like her more.

snip

Oh, she's worried about spilling beans because "Hades may not believe her"/"Hades may kick Hermes from convocation"? She apparently not worried gambling trillions of lives for 12k years based on meeting some dude from the future for a day. Never mind gambling the future of humanity by putting the burden on our shoulder, even maintaining the time loop is a gamble itself. Rather than working on her own people's issue (like a normal person), she decided to wipe the slate clean.

How do you even expect people to learn from their mistake if they don't even know the problem is? Her not mentioning meteion at all is like if you go to random person and said "hey, you fail the test", while they doesn't even know they're being tested for what.

Also, it's just funny that were the Ancients "move on" and decided not to do the third sacrifice, they will still lose in the end since meteion speed up the death of the universe. Or if the Ascian decided to "move on" after sundering, then her plan failed too because she needs rejoining to introduce mankind to despair and for the time loop to happen.

[EaraGrace]

Oh, she's worried about spilling beans because "Hades may not believe her"/"Hades may kick Hermes from convocation"? She apparently not worried gambling trillions of lives for 12k years based on meeting some dude from the future for a day. Never mind gambling the future of humanity by putting the burden on our shoulder, even maintaining the time loop is a gamble itself. Rather than working on her own people's issue (like a normal person), she decided to wipe the slate clean.

We’ll first whether she was “maintaining the time loop” remains unclear. Saving Emet from the Sundering, and even then on a gamble, is not enough to do so considering you’d need all three Unsundered. She could’ve left the door opened to that possibility, but that doesn’t indicate an “all according to keikaku” move.

And “working on her own peoples issues” was the Sundering. That was the point, heading down the path they were on would mean doom.

How do you even expect people to learn from their mistake if they don't even know the problem is? Her not mentioning meteion at all is like if you go to random person and said "hey, you fail the test", while they doesn't even know they're being tested for what.

Yes, I’m sure she loved not being able to tell people. Probably was going “ohhohoho” while she did it.

Also, it's just funny that were the Ancients "move on" and decided not to do the third sacrifice, they will still lose in the end since meteion speed up the death of the universe. Or if the Ascian decided to "move on" after sundering, then her plan failed too because she needs rejoining to introduce mankind to despair and for the time loop to happen.

I mean, if they moved on I’d imagine they would then work out a way to defeat Meteion, probably with some form of the Sundering. And if they moved on afterwards they would already have the means to confront despair, considering they’d live imperfect, mortal lives with death an inevitability. The Rejoinings would only be needed if one was aiming to ensure the timelines were the same as you say, but once again whether that was the main intent is up in the air.