Dark Knight Megathread

[The_User]

TBN has been used in the opener when the raid buff is delayed so you don't over cap

[Marxam]

Which is understandable, but in the event of a rework and a choice forced between TBN losing its Dark Arts "counterattack" to be freed of its MP cost and balanced properly against other on-demands versus remaining as-is with its primary defensive skill weighed against two attacks, the fact it keeps coming up seems to mean most would be happier with the former.

I think TBN should be put to two charges, just like oblation and its cd increased to justify the removal of MP cost. Get rid of dark arts and either bring it back in 7.0 or just get rid of it. It's just painful to see what DA has become after its initial offering in 3.0. It would give it more utility and not be tied to your dps. Being able to TBN both tanks for a shared tankbuster sounds pretty good. It still a 25% HP shield but it has flexibility and multiple uses.

They could even keep the MP return on tbn pop, but obviously adjusted so using TBN is no longer dps neutral and you won't feel so bad if it doesn't pop since it cost you nothing. However, if it does pop you get some MP as a reward to spam shadows more. Though with this utility they will need to buff WAR and PLD more to put it in line with how TBN is more useful now. A tank's main appeal should not be how much damage it deals but how much damage it can negate (which in turn means your healers can dps more)

[Shurrikhan]

True, but from a design perspective, the idea of having any new MP abilities, or reworking the properties of the ones we have, must be constrained against the value of TBN and its potential interactions on the same resource.

Yes, but so what?

We cannot usefully discuss ANY central skill's resource (be it time, weave-gap, shared CDs, or job-specific resources) without also considering the impacts upon that skill. That's not unique.

The same case would have to be made for Kaiten and Gyoten vs. Shinten, Reprise vs. RDM's melee combo, (previously) Onslaught vs. Fell Cleave, Bloodletter vs. Perfect Pitch vs. average Bard non-DoT WS ppgcd, etc., etc.

That doesn't mean we suddenly can't balance or add onto their kits; it just means we have to have a modicum of intelligence in doing so. Not every skill has to go the way of --barring time thus spent-- complete independence.

We cannot... discuss... altering our MP gain abilities like Blood Weapon, or reducing the MP costs of Flood/Edge without that affecting the economy of TBN.

Yes, greatly changing MP/gauge generation would increase or decrease the punishment of not leaving a TBN's worth of MP/gauge (i.e., cause it take more or less time to get back to X MP after having overspent), but it would do nothing to proper play.

We cannot, for instance, discuss having new skills that cost more/less MP... [or] putting AD on an MP system (as you have in the past) without discussing if it's affected by DA/DS.

You might as well say that PLD can't get any more spells specifically because Requiescat only affects the damage of Holy Circle and Holy Spirit. DA affects only Edge/Flood at present because those are the only skills presently tied to MP.

Current DA in practice: Reduces the cost of your following MP-spenders other than TBN by a total of <TBN's MP cost>.

It merely happens that there are only two MP spenders at present, each of which can only cost 3k MP, the same as TBN.

A DA mechanic that'd suit whatever you need: Reduces the cost of your following MP-spenders other than TBN by a total of <TBN's MP cost>.

Allowing for more varied MP costs takes no more than switching DA from "next spender free" to "next X-gauge's-worth of spending free". We've already seen changes similar to that in other jobs once a reason for that small extra layer of precision was added. That DA currently only affected Edge/Flood does not mean it must only ever affect Edge/Flood. It just means that there is at present nothing else for it to affect.

Under the current system, we're locked into only having Edge/Flood on MP.

No. No, we are not. There is currently NOTHING ELSE on MP. Given there is currently NOTHING ELSE to spend MP, DA only affects what's on MP (Edge/Flood). That does not mean it can only ever affect what is currently on MP.

Unless you're insisting that TBN was designed from the start to purposely (dis)favor certain currently inexistant spenders over (or, in favor of) others, there is no reason to think they'd use new ability additions to add complexity (works on this but not that) to TBN. Far more likely, we'd simply have its gameplay affects translated over by simply, in essence, modernizing its language and no longer shortcutting its procedure to take advantage of very limited surroundings.

We can't discuss situational alternatives to TBN (like old RI vs NF, or Cover vs Intervention) without discussing how to implement a DA-like aspect or make up for not having one.

Yes, that's how alternatives work. They take into account the full power of whatever they're competing against. What is shocking about this? You already have to do this for every other alternative. Why would it suddenly be so bad that you have to do this for TBN, just as you would for anything else?

[WhyAmIHere]

TBN has been used in the opener when the raid buff is delayed so you don't over cap

....no?
it's to fish for a proc for a free Edge/Flood in burst...

[FoxCh40s]

....no?
it's to fish for a proc for a free Edge/Flood in burst...

No, TBN is there to make you feel like you have something interesting to do.

[WhyAmIHere]

No, TBN is there to make you feel like you have something interesting to do.

I already have something interesting to do:
not level DRK and play literally any other job until DRK is reworked.
But I get what you mean. I'm not gonna make any arguments for TBN or against it, because *everyone* has their own two cents to add on it. Just gonna wait for the devs to unscrew their heads and fix the broken tank.

[The_User]

"for a free Edge/Flood in burst" see? it wasn't because you really need a mitigation. TBN prepull isn't because there is gonna be a tank buster coming during 6s window after the pull. If the raid buff take 4-5 gcd before it begin then you will generate more than 3000 MP because Syphon Strike+Blood Weapon+natural mp regen and that mean 1 EOS before raid buff wasn't enough to kept you from over cap.

[Jirah]

who remembers Tar pit? can DRK get that at like 45 as a 1-2 from Unleash? Then have it evolve into stalwart soul?

[Zairava]

who remembers Tar pit? can DRK get that at like 45 as a 1-2 from Unleash? Then have it evolve into stalwart soul?

I'd prefer stalwart soul evolving into Tar Pit, but i support this idea

[Duskane]

who remembers Tar pit? can DRK get that at like 45 as a 1-2 from Unleash? Then have it evolve into stalwart soul?

No one because it was never actually on pve DRK
but it would be cool just to replace stalwart soul in general and carnal chill with unmend

cut abilities for reference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXMTLM19JZw