Dark Knight Megathread

[Shurrikhan]

I honestly believe that with Dark Arts, the devs should have made it more like Hissatsu: Kaiten(before they deleted it from the game) where it boosted the damage of your next weaponskill or ability by 50% during Stormblood, but that will never happen now since they need to have it tied to a gauge that might as well not even exist as it is UI bloat, and I honestly think that is worse than hotbar/button bloat, especially if said UI bloat caused hotbar/button bloat to begin with...

??? Dark Arts isn't tied to Darkside, though. Its indicator is tied to the Blood Gauge, and only for visual convenience. It also has no button; it's purely a TBN secondary frequency-constraining mechanic.

Moreover, if you made a percentile bonus like Hissatsu: Kaiten, then it'd have to be tuned as to only be useful around our most damaging weaponskills, Bloodspiller/Quietus, which means it'd see use only...
[A] as a brainless bundle (always hit DA before Bloodspiller), and
[B] very infrequently outside of the likes of a Delirium-based Bloodspiller-spam. (The natural frequency of Bloodspiller is just 2 in 17 GCDs.)

[Oizen]

TBN not breaking already feels pretty shit, wrapping even more damage/effects into it would honestly just make it too high-roll for my taste.

I've said it a few times, but if I were to change skills for healing, I'd pick something like Abyssal Drain, Salted Earth, or even Oblation/Dark Mind.

DRK doesn't need to be more TBN-centric

[Derio]

I really miss the old dark arts. I prefer dark passenger over flood of shadow. I prefer dark dance over oblation and miss the old abyssal drain.

[Oizen]

I like what Dark Arts currently is, as a way to cast MP skills without spending the MP.
We just need more MP skills, and more ways to get Dark Arts Stacks.

I think the system has a lot of potential and I hope they do something more with it instead of it being the Edge/Flood spam tool

[Zairava]

I like what Dark Arts currently is, as a way to cast MP skills without spending the MP.
We just need more MP skills, and more ways to get Dark Arts Stacks.

I think the system has a lot of potential and I hope they do something more with it instead of it being the Edge/Flood spam tool

Read this at work and had a bit of a brain blast.

What if...we brought back Dark Arts as an actual ability, but kept its current form of giving free mp costs?

It would have no mp cost, and can hold up to 2-3 charges. This could be a GCD to prevent clipping (especially in an already oGCD heavy burst) with a short recast (think mudras from Ninja, or Eukrasia). It would function exactly as it does now: as a method of letting you use one offensive mp spender for free [per charge]

TBN would still cost mp, and the shield breaking is what grants charges of Dark Arts, exactly as it does now.

To simplify it this in an outline:

• Dark Arts returns as an ability, costs no mp, requires Dark Arts stacks (granted from TBN or otherwise) to use
• Dark Arts provides the same effect it does now. It lets you use an offensive ability that costs mp for free
• TBN functions identically to how it does now

These modifications would preserve the cost-reward of possibly not gaining a free usage, but also allows you to optimize when and where you wish to use Dark Arts for free expenditure instead of forcing it on the next edge/flood use, ultimately preventing a method of accidental mp overcap when preparing your burst while simultaneously providing player agency on when to use Dark Arts stacks. This, I feel, also could potentially create a unique design or playstyle no other job has. preserving Effective MP (eMP) for maximum potential output.
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On a separate note, I'm not entirely sure how to make another method of granting Dark Arts charges. As a spitball, they could give us a new mp spender on a 30s CD that grants it, but I feel like there's better ways. Maybe a revamped Sole Survivor..?


Also yes, please make Abyssal Drain an mp spender for aoe sustain or just merge it with Carve and Spit. The former is much preferred.

ALSO BRING POWERSLASH ANIMATION BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't care where we have it I just want that animation back it was the most badass animation we had and they yeeted it for no reason

+1, also bring the Scourge animation back too please

[Zairava]

snip

Me wanting Dark Arts to be like it was prior is nothing more than a want. I already know they aren't going to change it back realistically, and I also know that it isn't the best path forward for the job to actually evolve.

To reiterate, here's most of my post from the page prior.:

What if we brought back Dark Arts as an actual ability, but kept its current form of giving free mp costs?

It would have no mp cost, and can hold up to 2-3 charges. This could be a GCD to prevent clipping (especially in an already oGCD heavy burst) with a short recast (think mudras from Ninja, or Eukrasia). It would function exactly as it does now: as a method of letting you use one offensive mp spender for free [per charge]

TBN would still cost mp, and the shield breaking is what grants charges of Dark Arts, exactly as it does now.

To simplify it this in an outline:
Dark Arts returns as an ability, costs no mp, requires Dark Arts stacks (granted from TBN or otherwise) to use
Dark Arts provides the same effect it does now. It lets you use an offensive ability that costs mp for free
TBN functions identically to how it does now

These modifications would preserve the cost-reward of possibly not gaining a free usage, but also allows you to optimize when and where you wish to use Dark Arts for free expenditure instead of forcing it on the next edge/flood use, ultimately preventing a method of accidental mp overcap when preparing your burst while simultaneously providing player agency on what to use Dark Arts charges on and when.
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On a separate note, I'm not entirely sure how to make another method of granting Dark Arts charges. As a spitball, they could give us a new mp spender on a 30s CD that grants it, but I feel like there's better ways.

This is a pretty good path to take, I feel. It keeps the current effect of Dark Arts while building upon it, making it a central and crucial part of DRK's kit.

They could just give us another charge without making Dark Arts(albeit revised compared to prior to Shadowbringers), but revising it to what I suggested it would be needed for mechanical "depth", if such is the right term here. Engagement might be better. Given that that we want more mp spenders to begin with, this would absolutely provide player agency. (that being, how and what the player decides it is used on.)

To continue, I've tried thinking on a number of methods of how we can have more than just TBN provide Dark Arts charges.

Other defensives costing mp and granting DA wouldn't necessarily work unless it's granted immediately, and no matter how you look at it, it would be seen as offensive tool anyway.
Other mp spenders would only realistically work for more edge/flood spam, as they would very likely be put on a cooldown since otherwise it would be effectively infinite MP..

It's worth mentioning that unless we make these DA charges relatively frequent and add more mp spenders, there is no real management and we still end up at the same place we are now, save them for burst on edge/flood and snore outside of bursts.

So...this led me to another train of thought. Using Blood Gauge spenders. I'll just use Power Slash and Delirium as sample abilities here.

Power Slash:

• Is a GCD
• Does X potency
• Requires 20 Blood Gauge
• Grants one charge of Dark Arts
• 20-30s Cooldown

Delirium:

• remains an oGCD
• Costs 50 Blood Gauge
• Grants one charge of Dark Arts
• 60s Cooldown
  -It's worth noting that Living Shadow would either need it's Gauge cost removed or/and become an MP spender for this version of Delirium to work.-

As for mp spenders...ideas for those are up in the air. Giving Shadowbringer an mp cost as well as Abyssal Drain are a couple I'm in favor of.

[Shurrikhan]

...

So, there are a few things here I'm confused/concerned by.


I.
If the only point of DA-as-an-action would be to nullify the cost of the next ability... is there really any point in spending a button on that? You can as easily just make the cost-nullification automatic and perhaps even conditional (used only if under 60% [two oGCDs' worth of] remaining MP).

If we make it a GCD a la Meditation, then there's more reason for that button... but then you effectively end up with it just being a competitor to Unmend and/or Unleash, either replacing them (especially, when there's more than 1 GCD but less than 2 GCDs time remaining to damage the enemy/enemies) or being made inferior to them. At most, that offers an anti-overclocking option, but not one that's particularly useful to DRK since its ppgcd variance across its combo is already low unless the one extra SE within window would replace a HS with a BS, especially with BS potency already having been further deemphasized in favor of oGCD value in EW.


II.
Though this does apply also to the current version of DA, working around a single-cast cost-nullifier means that we're absolutely stuck with every MP spender costing the exact same amount of MP.

That's not the worst thing to have happen, but it's also far from necessary. Heck, we could have taken the current DA design and just changed it such that mitigation by TBN and Shadow Wall restore %MP equal to their %HP of damage thereby absorbed -- wholly granular. You'd just have a shadowed/"barrier-ed" portion of your MP bar that notes how much additional MP value would be 'free-cast', while your MP text value just shows the combined amounts. Just call that free MP from mitigation "Dark Arts" or "Shadowskin" or what have you and voila: you've no obligation to play around a fixed MP cost for all things.

Exceptions: Technically, if we wanted to use a %current_MP spender (with whatever minimum cost), we could game that a bit with single-cast cost-nullification. Short of that, though, there's no advantage to pigeonholing ourselves in that way.


III.
Finally, let's go over the Power Slash (on CD, via a GCD, spend 20 Blood for potency + free Edge of Shadow / MP spender) and Delirium (per 60s, oGCD, spend 50 Blood for a free Edge of Shadow / MP spender) redesign ideas...

Whatever the potency of Power Slash itself, the biggest thing is that you're trading X% of the benefit of Bloodspiller over your average combo ppgcd... for oGCD potency (an Edge, at minimum). Attaching that Blood cost does (at least) mean (for better or worse) that you can't open with this skill, and have to margin differently (whereas before our margining had to do with odd/even multiples of 50 Blood generated), but... I'm not really getting the appeal of a skill whose value has to be so anchored around "Gives a free Edge of Shadow", when we already have 4 MP spending oGCDs in our immediate opener alone. I'd... much prefer Scourge, for instance, over that.

Similarly, Delirium assumes that Blood must simply be greatly inferior to MP, because you're trading (for this particular example/version) 50% of the one for just 30% of the other. Is that really a desirable balance of / take on our two resources? Do we want Blood to remain that auxiliary and lackluster, let alone become even more secondary to MP?

Honestly, I could see us scrapping Blood outright if we were to sufficiently revamp Darkside and make more interesting use of MP than as a mere DRK-Kenki gauge (without the access to a quick, low-cost gap-closer / backstep), but so long as we're keeping it, I'd rather not see it even more obviously squished into irrelevance in itself. The only reason I was at all okay with Stormblood Delirium was because of it extending Blood Weapon for self-refunding DA-Quietus cheese in large pulls.

[Zairava]

snip

1) It's mostly to avoid accidental usage on say...edge instead of Shadowbringer, if edge is still 3k and Shadowbringer is 5k, for example. I understand the preference for it being automatic though. They could also put it on conditional usage as you mentioned. Do you think they could somehow tie Darkside to DA?...in any sense that it would actually be interesting, anyway.

2) The only thing preventing them from giving different mp costs is their incessant desire to make everything as safe as possible, otherwise we would likely have different mp costs on abilities now. Whether it's single use or not doesn't matter, because that's an issue that already exists without it being a GCD with a maximum capacity of 2-3 charges. There doesn't have to be some complicated method to having different mp costs, just make the ones with a higher mp cost on a cooldown. I do think that there should probably be some degree of increased mp restoration regardless of DRK iteration in 7.0 to maybe get one or two oGCD's in during burst downtime.

3) The idea wasn't to use it immediately anyway. With Blood Weapon in its current installment, you get 70 blood gauge. 20 would be for the spender and 50 would be for Delirium (refer to my note about Living Shadow.)

However, I'm with you on points here.

• I would infinitely rather we just get Scourge back instead of my "spender gives DA charge" concept.
• The Blood gauge is completely lackluster, they could completely remove it and I would be none the worse for wear. Especially if they have no intentions on doing anything with it.

[JPMJ]

As for mp spenders...ideas for those are up in the air. Giving Shadowbringer an mp cost as well as Abyssal Drain are a couple I'm in favor of.

I'm dissatisfied that only the Dark Knight doesn't have a finisher.

If you want to add MP cost to Shadowbringer, please increase the potency so that you can use it as a finisher.
Or make Blood Delirium activating condition
There is no charge, and the CD of 60 seconds and the potency is about 1200
GCD skills are even better.

[Zairava]

I'm dissatisfied that only the Dark Knight doesn't have a finisher.

If you want to add MP cost to Shadowbringer, please increase the potency so that you can use it as a finisher.
Or make Blood Delirium activating condition
There is no charge, and the CD of 60 seconds and the potency is about 1200
GCD skills are even better.

I personally would prefer if Delirium granted a finisher (or a combo thereof, instead of just 3 Bloodspillers), but I don't feel like Shadowbringer quite hits that mark like PLD's confiteor combo or WAR's Primal Rend does, so I'd like something that feels like it has more power behind it