When are we supposed to stop fighting?

[SannaR]

I guess I must have missed the part where we learned that the 3rd sacrifice was the first step of them moving on. Do we even know if the 2nd summoning was also done by people who were willing to give up their lives to get the planet healing again? I'm leaning towards the new life being sentient as from what we know Venat's group wanted them to be handed the baton. We also know it wasn't as aetherically dense as the Ancients were and must have looked strange enough that many saw it as mishapen. Depending on what a Meteion says about how planetary lifestreams work it could have been alien life that was reborn. How can so many be sure that if she did choose to tell even post Zodiark the things she knew that they'd of listened? There was an impasse or Elidibus wouldn't have felt a need to detach himself from Zodiark. Heck even if they did listen both Hythlodaeus and Emet agreed that Hermes was making the test a fair one before we escaped.

Yes, Azem went to the volcanic island. Most of the convocation were fine with the choices given the inhabitants of the island saying that any and all who didn't want to die by said Volcano had already done so. Those who stayed we're given to assume we're fine with their at time time presumed death. It was Azem who went nah screw that when I know I can save everyone and got Hythlodaeus to help out by allowing them to use the Ifrita concept. For me the biggest question and what the heck and it looks like a dick move is Azem just deciding to go with neither plan. Either they had prophetic visions or Venat clued them in on some things. Cause it doesn't fit with what little we've been told about their personality.

Are both what Venat did and the rejoinings dick moves? Heck yeah. Is what the future Ironworks a dick move? Not really? They had no way and still didn't have a away to know if their plan succeeded or not. They just know the tower got yeeted and Midgardsormr woke up after a 200yr long nap and regardless of their plan's outcome they still existed.

[redheadturk]

I guess I must have missed the part where we learned that the 3rd sacrifice was the first step of them moving on. Do we even know if the 2nd summoning was also done by people who were willing to give up their lives to get the planet healing again? I'm leaning towards the new life being sentient as from what we know Venat's group wanted them to be handed the baton. We also know it wasn't as aetherically dense as the Ancients were and must have looked strange enough that many saw it as mishapen. Depending on what a Meteion says about how planetary lifestreams work it could have been alien life that was reborn. How can so many be sure that if she did choose to tell even post Zodiark the things she knew that they'd of listened? There was an impasse or Elidibus wouldn't have felt a need to detach himself from Zodiark. Heck even if they did listen both Hythlodaeus and Emet agreed that Hermes was making the test a fair one before we escaped.

Yes, Azem went to the volcanic island. Most of the convocation were fine with the choices given the inhabitants of the island saying that any and all who didn't want to die by said Volcano had already done so. Those who stayed we're given to assume we're fine with their at time time presumed death. It was Azem who went nah screw that when I know I can save everyone and got Hythlodaeus to help out by allowing them to use the Ifrita concept. For me the biggest question and what the heck and it looks like a dick move is Azem just deciding to go with neither plan. Either they had prophetic visions or Venat clued them in on some things. Cause it doesn't fit with what little we've been told about their personality.

Are both what Venat did and the rejoinings dick moves? Heck yeah. Is what the future Ironworks a dick move? Not really? They had no way and still didn't have a away to know if their plan succeeded or not. They just know the tower got yeeted and Midgardsormr woke up after a 200yr long nap and regardless of their plan's outcome they still existed.

I still am of the mindset that Azem went to seek a third option that would eliminate the need both for Zodiark's summoning and the Sundering. Which would very much imply Venat did not tell them either, as the recordings in Anyder suggest.

[SannaR]

I still am of the mindset that Azem went to seek a third option that would eliminate the need both for Zodiark's summoning and the Sundering. Which would very much imply Venat did not tell them either, as the recordings in Anyder suggest.

That is what I've wanted to believe ever since we learned that Azem didn't want to be part of either summoning. Yet the stuff with what Elidibus says to us at the start of Pandaemonium makes it come off that either they had future sight like Mikoto does or a former Azem told an Azem something along the lines of "Hey, you're going to have to say no to the Zodiark plan and to my Hydelean plan. Don't ask me why." Maybe they went to try and find out why the aether was drying up in places as even though we know that's not exactly what caused the Final Days that's what everyone else thought. I'm still confused about the sound that came from the earth since why would that happen if the song is coming from the outside? Unless the song targets a planet's core/sea and works from the inside out. Cause right now Azem's actions or lack of action comes off as the worst.

[KageTokage]

they had future sight like Mikoto does

I'm inclined to believe that the former manifestation of the Echo was just a Matsuno-created plot device (And an extremely inconsequential and useless one at that) they'd rather pretend never existed because if there were people who had absolute premonitions that were certain to happen back in the time of the Ancients, it feels extremely unlikely the Final Days would've caught them off guard as badly as it did even without Venat telling them anything; moreso with the implication that the Ancients could actively control the Echo as opposed to it just happening spontaneously.

When I think about it though, even the vague premonitions of the world's end we were getting in Endwalker are not in line what we've experienced prior and makes me question if the Echo is perhaps linked to the Lifestream and/or Etheriys itself somehow given that we never experienced those visions until an existential threat was looming on the horizon. The implications of a coming Lifestream-related disaster as per the Golden Dhyata's prophecy makes me feel like unraveling deeper secrets of the world is going to be a huge factor in the next story arc.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

If you read what i said, based on Hythlo's dialogue, after the 3rd sacrifice they would return to their duties of stewarding the star. Yes we know both the 1st and 2nd set were done voluntarily. My point isnt so much post zodiark as it is prior. She had the knowledge of everything prior to the final days. Emer has to do his duty whether he believes her or not, we see this with our claim, he thinks its crazy but he still has to investigate. He also knows though, that he was mind wiped. Its as simple as her saying hey, this is why you were mind wiped, this is what happened etc.

My point about ironworks was its the same situation as the ancients. They didnt know if their plan would succeed, however they did understand that messing with time could have the side effect of erasing them all and killing everyone in that timeline, but they went along with it anyway. They were willing to sacrifice every single person in that timeline to bring back the wol and reverse the calamity brought unto them. Thats my point.

Turk explicitly said even if they were. Which is what I was responding to.

Yes i understand that which is why the rest of my post was talking about if it was theoretically true. Sorry for the confusion Thing is though, is it just me or did they kind of drop the whole 3rd sacrifice thing. I dont remember it being mentioned much in Endwalker.

[SannaR]

If you read what i said, based on Hythlo's dialogue, after the 3rd sacrifice they would return to their duties of stewarding the star. Yes we know both the 1st and 2nd set were done voluntarily. My point isnt so much post zodiark as it is prior. She had the knowledge of everything prior to the final days. Emer has to do his duty whether he believes her or not, we see this with our claim, he thinks its crazy but he still has to investigate. He also knows though, that he was mind wiped. Its as simple as her saying hey, this is why you were mind wiped, this is what happened etc.

My point about ironworks was its the same situation as the ancients. They didnt know if their plan would succeed, however they did understand that messing with time could have the side effect of erasing them all and killing everyone in that timeline, but they went along with it anyway. They were willing to sacrifice every single person in that timeline to bring back the wol and reverse the calamity brought unto them. Thats my point.

What does going back to being the stewards of the star mean though? Does it mean going OK folks we've been saved from w/e that was by Zodiark time to just pretend it didn't happen. Let's ignore that we found out that a few of the currents that are needed for life to do its thing had thinned out. Or do they go huh maybe we should make sure we're safe. Cause even if Azem wasn't on board we still should take a look at that and make sure our math was correct.

Emet still could have listened and still went so why did you decide to say screw the test? He didn't exactly deal with the loss of either friend. Heck even after the sundering I wonder why they didn't try and get some form of answer. As that would have been the best next time. From the Watcher's records at least the ones we were able to read they never asked them or try to understand why she kept Zodiark whole. Yes, it would have been great pre-sundering if more people could have been told what was really going down. Or that she thought saying screw Herme's and his test even post Zodiark was an option. Running away seems to have always been plan B, but the gain enough resolve and the know how to fight Meteion was always plan A.

Just because she didn't tell anyone there's a collective of murdery through despair birds that need to be dealt with doesn't mean people wouldn't have chosen the run away option. It's like how Le' Cie work in XIII. They get told oh hey this is your mission so go do that. If you don't you'll turn into a mindless monster that goes around killing everything. Only on a rare occasion did a Le'Cie say screw my mission I'm not going to do it cause it goes against my principles and not end up being a mindless monster killing everything.

[KizuyaKatogami]

What does going back to being the stewards of the star mean though? Does it mean going OK folks we've been saved from w/e that was by Zodiark time to just pretend it didn't happen. Let's ignore that we found out that a few of the currents that are needed for life to do its thing had thinned out. Or do they go huh maybe we should make sure we're safe. Cause even if Azem wasn't on board we still should take a look at that and make sure our math was correct.

Emet still could have listened and still went so why did you decide to say screw the test? He didn't exactly deal with the loss of either friend. Heck even after the sundering I wonder why they didn't try and get some form of answer. As that would have been the best next time. From the Watcher's records at least the ones we were able to read they never asked them or try to understand why she kept Zodiark whole. Yes, it would have been great pre-sundering if more people could have been told what was really going down. Or that she thought saying screw Herme's and his test even post Zodiark was an option. Running away seems to have always been plan B, but the gain enough resolve and the know how to fight Meteion was always plan A.

Just because she didn't tell anyone there's a collective of murdery through despair birds that need to be dealt with doesn't mean people wouldn't have chosen the run away option. It's like how Le' Cie work in XIII. They get told oh hey this is your mission so go do that. If you don't you'll turn into a mindless monster that goes around killing everything. Only on a rare occasion did a Le'Cie say screw my mission I'm not going to do it cause it goes against my principles and not end up being a mindless monster killing everything.

I’m not saying everyone would have believed her, but given Emet’s status in the convocation and Hythlo as a very well respected member along with Venat being a previous Azem, the three of them hold a LOT of weight, and i find it hard to believe at the very least the convocation wouldn’t hear out her plea, especially since she even had a tracker on Meteion. As far as the stewards of the star, i’d imagine it’s just what they’ve always done, doing things for the betterment of the star. The thing is they didn’t even know after the fact what caused it, they thought Zodiark got rid of it and that’s that. It’s Venat that kept the secrets which is the problem here.