When are we supposed to stop fighting?

[Theodric]

The Sundering is the equivalent of the 'euthanasia' plan in Attack on Titan for those who happen to be familiar with it. Something framed by the orchestrators as a 'kind' form of genocide, but still an act of genocide designed to eliminate a species against their will.

Forcibly isolating someone from their loved ones, stripping away their memories and sense of self in addition to warping their physical form to the point of being unrecognisable is not usually considered to be a positive act. Especially when it is enforced without consent.

[EaraGrace]

The Sundering is the equivalent of the 'euthanasia' plan in Attack on Titan for those who happen to be familiar with it. Something framed by the orchestrators as a 'kind' form of genocide, but still an act of genocide designed to eliminate a species against their will.

Forcibly isolating someone from their loved ones, stripping away their memories and sense of self in addition to warping their physical form to the point of being unrecognisable is not usually considered to be a positive act. Especially when it is enforced without consent.

I dont think anyone disagrees that the Sunderings effects were horrible, but measuring the moral weight of an action doesn’t begin and end with recognizing how much it sucks. War is horrific, but is there a possibility for a just war? Inequality blows, but are there cases where having inequality might be the less bad option?

There’s more at play in these things.

[KariTheFox]

I dont think anyone disagrees that the Sunderings effects were horrible, but measuring the moral weight of an action doesn’t begin and end with recognizing how much it sucks. War is horrific, but is there a possibility for a just war? Inequality blows, but are there cases where having inequality might be the less bad option?

There’s more at play in these things.

Context and intent also matter. There's a difference in framing between "he cuts people with open knives and takes thier organs" and "he is a surgeon who performs organ transplants". Both are literal descriptions of what is happening, but I think we'd all agree the latter is a more accurate framing.

[Theodric]

Some of the most horrific acts of mass death have been conducted throughout our own history under the pretence of resolving 'inequality'. Often accomplishing little more than replacing one set of out of touch 'leaders' with another and inflicting starvation, torment and worse upon the populace.

As for the 'least bad' option, I daresay sacrificing a portion of the 'New Life' to Zodiark would have qualified as such instead of subjecting every single man, woman and child amongst the Ancients to genocide and bizarre 'tests' that were enforced upon them without their knowledge and consent.

[EaraGrace]

Some of the most horrific acts of mass death have been conducted throughout our own history under the pretence of resolving 'inequality'. Often accomplishing little more than replacing one set of out of touch 'leaders' with another and inflicting starvation, torment and worse upon the populace.

As for the 'least bad' option, I daresay sacrificing a portion of the 'New Life' to Zodiark would have qualified as such instead of subjecting every single man, woman and child amongst the Ancients to genocide and bizarre 'tests' that were enforced upon them without their knowledge and consent.

In your view sure. I could also say that the Ancients fundamental beliefs endangered themselves and all life, and horrific though the consequences may be, needed to be separated from their self appointed god if they were or anyone else were to live on.

And thus we disagree.

[KizuyaKatogami]

In your view sure. I could also say that the Ancients fundamental beliefs endangered themselves and all life, and horrific though the consequences may be, needed to be separated from their self appointed god if they were or anyone else were to live on.

And thus we disagree.

The same way we worship and assist a self appointed supreme deity who also endangered all life.. Interesting…

[EaraGrace]

The same way we worship and assist a self appointed supreme deity who also endangered all life.. Interesting…

That’s a weird way to say saved all life. And once again whose worshipping Her rn exactly?

[Vyrerus]

That’s a weird way to say saved all life. And once again whose worshipping Her rn exactly?

Hydaelyn didn't save jack. She set us up to save jack. We saved jack. If she coulda saved jack, she would've. She couldn't so she gave us some massive prep.

[KizuyaKatogami]

That’s a weird way to say saved all life. And once again whose worshipping Her rn exactly?

She didn’t really save all life considering peoples souls were literally erased in the final days now did she? Considering the way the story portrays her, yshtola and even us apparently worship her as a hero.

[Lyth]

...

Many people mistakenly believe that 'line-by-line' quotes followed by clever responses make their arguments look more convincing. I don't, and the formatting just makes me not want to waste my time trying to go through it, even as a third party observer to a discussion. If someone wants to have a look at what I'm responding to, they just click on the little double arrow icon next to your name in the quote to get a direct link. Try it yourself. You've already written your post, and I trust that you won't rewrite it after the fact. I'm happy to put out a line or paragraph quote when necessary if there's something in particular I need to zero in on. But if there are multiple people that I'm responding to, I really prefer to just put out an open post on my overall take rather than dumping out a string of quotes.

It's also a waste of time for me to try and address everything that you put out, especially when there are four or five of you all trying to talk over each other at once in circular statements. Your interpretation of the Sanderson lectures was wrong and given that not everyone has had the chance to go through them for themselves, I am glad that I was able to at least set the record straight in that regard.

I think that it's pointless to get into a feasibility discussion on time travel, because the writers can take this in any direction that they want. Up until now, most instances of time travel have had enormous limitations and costs attached. Alexander's time jumps cost an enormous amount of aether and would have drained the planet dry had it not sealed itself off into a single instant in time. G'raha's excursion to alter the past took centuries of collaborative work from everyone in the Eight Umbral Calamity timeline, and even then they got it wrong by a few centuries. And at the end of it, not only did he never return to his original timeline, but he also turned to stone to resolve the paradox of having two G'raha's in the same timeline. Elidibus' conduit to Elpis melted away the last remnants of his massive aether reserves and soul, and even as he fades into nothingness, he specifically warns you that you cannot change the Final Days through time travel, despite dedicating his life to try to bring back Amaurot. And he has nothing to lose and everything to gain in letting you try.

But do you know what? None of this matters at all. If the writers turn around and decide that they want to let you undo the Final Days, then you can. Perhaps Elidibus, despite being the most powerful Amaurotian, god of his people, and having a genius level understanding of magic, simply missed something. He didn't know that by using Dynamis, along with a newly discovered MacGuffin powered by the force of your Mogstation Paypal account, you could go back and alter whatever events in the storyline that you like. Want Haurchefant back? No problem. Swipe your card, go back in time, save his life, and now he's an unlockable Trust character who freeloads in your house with multiple purchasable skins. It's not about whether you're 'allowed' to do it by the writers. It's about the implication that it has for future storytelling.

I'm generally wary of time travel in stories. When it's meant to be the central plot element, writers usually set a lot of restrictions upfront, be it in the form of energy costs (one point twenty one gigawatts), knowledge (nobody else is allowed to know that you're from the future), unpredictability (accidentally changing events for the worse), and so on. I didn't really mind it too much in Shadowbringers because it was mostly hidden in the background (you learn about it entirely after the fact) and was set up as a near impossible task, but even still it seemed superfluous. Or maybe it was just there to set up the conjunction Venat talked about, who knows. I liked Elpis because it was a cute idea executed in a playful manner and it allowed you to explore history in a slightly more interactive format than watching Elidibus' life in Sepia tones using the power of the Echo. But I'm also aware that this is dangerous ground, and the writers need to tread carefully with it. Would I prefer that they had never had opened Pandora's Box in the first place? Absolutely. But since we're here anyways, it's worth remembering that 'Limitations are always more interesting than powers.'