What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[KizuyaKatogami]

Let's skip all of your speculation missing the point about Azem's gender and let's just say:

...Did you not recognize Themis's very distinctive voice?

I suppose they might be arguing that Themis may have been a seat of Azem before taking the seat of Elidibus but…there’s absolutely nothing that supports this either so i’m a bit at a loss of what they mean. I figured it’s pretty clear cut the Azem in Elpis is us.

Ok. So lets change it to : Its clear that Azem is male at the time Pandaemonium occurs which would indicate that Pandaemonium occurs during the time after Venat was in the position of Azem and after the WoL goes to Elpis.

Intro to Venat and mention of Azem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC6ftXitvTM female change
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrnYFuHXo38 male change

But on both those situations, the intro to Venat and Themis, the reference to gender as Azem is in relation to the Player Character. So which is it? This is what I meant when I said misdirection. You can't have two presentations of story with switching gender reference to Azem as it distorts the information being given based on the gender of the PC.
After Elpis consideration
If the PC is male, Azem is male, Themis can potentially be Azem since he fulfills the qualifier of being Male and is post Venat as Azem. And Pandaemonium takes place after Elpis.
If the PC is female, Azem is female, and Themis can't potentially be Azem since he doesn't fulfill the qualifier of being female and is post Venat as Azem. And Pandaemonium takes place after Elpis.

So which is it? How do we bring those 2 points into alignment where we don't have a strong contradiction: Pandaemonium takes place before Elpis, occurs during the time Venat is Azem, or it takes place after Elpis.
Before Elpis consideration
If the PC is male, Azem is male, and Themis can't potentially be Azem since he fulfills the qualifier of being Male and is pre/during Venat as Azem. And Pandaemonium takes place before Elpis, or during Venat as Azem.
If the PC is female, Azem is female, and Themis can't potentially be Azem since she doesn't fulfill the qualifier of being female and is pre/during Venat as Azem. And Pandaemonium takes place before Elpis, or during Venat as Azem. (see what I did with my post ;p)

Which is also kinda what I mean about headcanoning. The only way to go Themis is Elidibus is from a perspective that doesn't exist based on the story or narrative provided so far. As the only PC that is affected to cause that perception is females. So yes, Kizuya I'm more then well aware that I am "headcanoning", that would be why I'm trying to discuss it. Well, should say was. enjoy your chamber.

You're free to headcanon whatever you wish, but its appreciated to not disclaim those who are giving you factual evidence that denounces your headcanon. Themis quite literally has Elidibus' VA, so please explain to me how he could not be Elidibus, and this is completely disregarding all of the other evidence we have that he most certainly isnt or was ever an Azem.

[dapperfaffer]

I'm not arguing anything. Thats why I used words like technically, and potentially, and basically wrote a conspiracy theory. Sicno was absolutley right. Its literal speculation under the premise of when Pandaemonium occurs. I know, how will I ever chase the updootz if I don't just gatekeep agree. I'll find a way to manage.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I'm not arguing anything. Thats why I used words like technically, and potentially, and basically wrote a conspiracy theory. Sinco was absolutley right. Its literal speculation under the premise of when Pandaemonium occurs. I know, how will I ever chase the updootz if I don't just gatekeep agree. I'll find a way to manage.

You stated the only way to go Themis is Elidibus is from some perspective that doesnt exist even though they literally have the same voice. No one even mentioned upvotes so im not quite sure why you're bringing it up/even care, they mean nothing. My overall point was just informing you the Azem in Elpis is us, the unsundered WoL. While Themis is Elidibus presumably before he actually took the seat of Elidibus.

[EaraGrace]

I already responded why those creations wouldn't make it to the Bureau, and Emet needed a guide through Elpis and didn't know the researchers personally nor their work. "The greatest sorcerer to living" didn't even know the person he was gonna try to convince to take a seat next to him in the Convocation.

Yes I made a typo, meant to say “greatest sorcerer living.” And who was this guide through Elpis?

Like I said, they were ENCOURAGED to submit their creations and I don't recall them having an OBLIGATION to do so. And in the case of the children toys you mention they would benefit kids in their society, meanwhile we stablished the entelechies would have no practical applications so they would be more personal projects, without a need of being shared with society at large.

What I mean is that when she talks of the people, ourselves included, she doesn't see us as the ancients we all were once, not even us who once held a seat in the convocation, and the same one she once held. She speaks to us from a perspective of being our "creator". Venat didn't create the ancient humanity, she was just another person who once walked among the rest, so everybody else were her equals. But now she no longer refers to anyone in that way. Rather, she now refers to everybody as her creations despite us supposedly being the same humanity. Why would that be if this was "the same humanity" she didn't create? If humanity was merely transformed and not created by her why would she be the mother?

Because they are younger beings shaped by the actions of a mother goddess? Once again viewing someone as your child doesn’t inherently mean they aren’t equals.

Like I also said earlier, she changes her tune about referring to us and to "humanity" depending on whatever narrative they were going for in the particular scene. Acknowledge she's inconsistent, she'll talk about mankind and "our journey" when that sounds like a prettier, more poetic narrative for defeating the ultimate baddie with all the power and memories and love and friendship and sacrifice from all the entities who live and once lived upon the star and at other times she'll make the distinction between us to justify her sundering.

But I don’t believe those are discrepancies, so I don’t see why I should acknowledge them as inconsistent! She never at any point says anything about the sundering that casts doubt on the humanity of those she sundered, or suggests she doesn’t view those sundered as a part of the same mankind. Far from it. If she viewed the two groups as so distinct as to be able to give up entirely on the former in favor of the latter, then we’re left with an inherent contradiction in her world view. After all, her faith in humanity comes from her experiences with the Ancients so if she viewed them as being that distinct, why would that belief apply to the sundered? Why would she have faith in a completely unrelated “new” group? She wouldn’t of course. The faith she gained from traveling the world and working with Ancient humanity leads her to have faith in them and in their sundered members.

First of all you quoted the part that I scratched. Second, yes the act she was """forced""" to make could also fit a 2nd purpose but don't claim that 2nd purpose is WHY you did it when you were really forced by the first.

I did so I wouldn’t take up half the page with quotes. And if there’s a reason why you did something… would you not say that’s why you did it? Once again saying that’s a reason for the sundering and why it happened the way it did does not mean it’s the only or sole reason. You’re forcing there to be a contradiction, unsuccessfully.

Because until the very end they weren't aware that there was a conscious entity causing the Final Days, and an entity that one of their own created, as oppossed to let's say a natural anomaly completely unkown to them. And since they had something super important to take care of, namely a phenomena that could erradicate them, I can see researchers abandoning their hobby projects about an impractical energy source and putting all their efforts into finding a solution. But do you honestly believe if they had known that dynamis was at the core of the problem and that one of their own creations was responsible they wouldn't have put all those efforts into its research?

I do! After the Final Days. Which once again leaves the problem of Hermes being necessary to halt it, the whole point of why you can’t tell the Convocation and the argument we’re having. So this is a meaningless point.

That makes zero sense. Allowing random citizens to make creations and judge whether to send to the bureau is a disaster waiting to happen. All it it would take is a single, poorly thought out pet to destroy an entire ecosystem or worse.

And Hythlo himself points out that Hermes hasn’t submitted Meteion yet and inquires when he will do so despite her only being a pet project to him at that point. Hell even the Elpis flower was submitted.

[dapperfaffer]

Let's skip all of your speculation missing the point about Azem's gender and let's just say:

...Did you not recognize Themis's very distinctive voice?

Yes it sounds like Elidibus. My entire premise is speculation. If you skip it, then don't bother responding to it. That sounds much harsher then what its meant to.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Yes it sounds like Elidibus. My entire premise is speculation. If you skip it, then don't bother responding to it.

I think the reason people are a bit confused here is speculation is typically backed by some form of textual evidence. There isnt really any evidence whatsoever pointing to Themis being Azem or him not being Elidibus.

[Sicno]

Yes I made a typo, meant to say “greatest sorcerer living.” And who was this guide through Elpis?

I wasn't getting at your typo, just pointing out how not even members of the Convocation knew every single person living on the planet nor what they were working on. They weren't some sort of overmind. They didn't know about Kairos either, despite being a dangerous tool by Emet's admission and it being used by more researchers at the facility, not just Hermes. Also keep in mind all the mess happening in Pandaemonium. It seems in reality a lot of things slipped under their radar, so stop trying to claim that because neither Emet nor Hythlodaeus knew anything about dynamis nor entelechies then that means nobody else in the entire star had knowledge about it besides Hermes. It's entirely possible there were other researchers who could have been competent enough or could have made entirely new discoveries to solve the Final Days if they had known dynamis was at the core of it.

Because they are younger beings shaped by the actions of a mother goddess? Once again viewing someone as your child doesn’t inherently mean they aren’t equals.

Younger beings? So I'm a "new" being after the sundering? So that means the former being who was Azem ceased to be and I'm a new being, right? That means... you know... the former being technically died in order to make a new being, and I'm that new younger being, her "child". And the same happens to the rest of humanity. Which means effectively that Genocidaelyn murdered all of humanity to create a new "breed" of it, whom are her "childs", out of whatever reason she deemed necessary but she did. Yes, you can still technically call that humanity, but she doesn't correlate the "new" beings to the old ones. Unless the cutscene requires it. And she didn't believe the "old" ones capable of dealing with things, so she used them as crafting mats for making the "new" ones who would be. Think of it like those moths we killed when we first arrived at Elpis from which they created our robes.

But I don’t believe those are discrepancies, so I don’t see why I should acknowledge them as inconsistent! She never at any point says anything about the sundering that casts doubt on the humanity of those she sundered, or suggests she doesn’t view those sundered as a part of the same mankind. Far from it. If she viewed the two groups as so distinct as to be able to give up entirely on the former in favor of the latter, then we’re left with an inherent contradiction in her world view. After all, her faith in humanity comes from her experiences with the Ancients so if she viewed them as being that distinct, why would that belief apply to the sundered? Why would she have faith in a completely unrelated “new” group? She wouldn’t of course. The faith she gained from traveling the world and working with Ancient humanity leads her to have faith in them and in their sundered members.

Not enough faith as to let them try to find a way of dealing with Meteion. Instead she let them flail completely in the dark at what they believed to be a phenomena in the laws of nature rather than a concerted attack that exploited their lack of interest in knowledge of the one rather obscure and particular thing the attacker happened to manipulate.

I did so I wouldn’t take up half the page with quotes. And if there’s a reason why you did something… would you not say that’s why you did it? Once again saying that’s a reason for the sundering and why it happened the way it did does not mean it’s the only or sole reason. You’re forcing there to be a contradiction, unsuccessfully.

I'll admit this time I may be grasping too hard at something that may be a pure localization thing (from what others have described of other languages). I'm just mad at how the localization just exacerbates the writing issues and I also keep some grudges for past "incidents", so I'll use every chance to throw shade at them, especially Koji.

That makes zero sense. Allowing random citizens to make creations and judge whether to send to the bureau is a disaster waiting to happen. All it it would take is a single, poorly thought out pet to destroy an entire ecosystem or worse.

You may be confusing "creations" with "concepts". The creations weren't submitted to the Bureau to see if they would let you use them or not, they were submitted to be turned into concepts that would be more widely used by other members of their society simply by providing them with aether. Making creations from scratch requires focus and intent by the creator. The Bureau basically aproves or rejects creations to be mass-produced in canned versions to be served in vendor machines.

And Hythlo himself points out that Hermes hasn’t submitted Meteion yet and inquires when he will do so despite her only being a pet project to him at that point. Hell even the Elpis flower was submitted.

Yes, he had an intention of eventually submitting her, and of course a member of the Bureau would encourage him to do it, that doesn't mean it was a "requirement" for everybody. Again, you're extrapolating too many "absolutes" from casual interactions. I think the true root of our differences in opinions is that I'm trying to point out how there's open possibilities for this and that unless there's hard evidence or a logic contradiction against it, while you're grasping vague interactions as irrefutable proof of this and that and negating other possibilities because they don't match that particular interaction without looking at the bigger picture.

[Sicno]

Yes it sounds like Elidibus. My entire premise is speculation. If you skip it, then don't bother responding to it. That sounds much harsher then what its meant to.

I did it because you're trying too hard to prove the Earth is flat when there's sooooooo many things that point at us being Azem and that Themis is Elidibus.

[dapperfaffer]

I did it because you're trying too hard to prove the Earth is flat when there's sooooooo many things that point at us being Azem and that Themis is Elidibus.

I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm not even trying to discuss anything at this point. I can accept that my entirely weak strawman speculation, doesn't work. I have no issue with that. Why you and Kizuya feel the need to attempt to continue to discuss something that you have already shut down, well I can't answer that for you.
As for your post, all I did was answer your question, and basically told you to stop responding to me.

[TaleraRistain]

I think the reason people are a bit confused here is speculation is typically backed by some form of textual evidence. There isnt really any evidence whatsoever pointing to Themis being Azem or him not being Elidibus.

Not only that, when you first meet Themis, he thinks you are his friend. And when this has happened with the Ancients like Hyth, they are recognizing the soul of our Azem. Which heavily implies our Azem is his friend. Considering the seats were offered to those who best fit them, if we're already in the picture in the same time period, it doesn't seem logical that Themis would be offered the seat, then step down, then possibly take up as Elidibus, and then sometime in there we ascend to the seat of Azem since the traits of the seat fit us perfectly. I can't see how Themis would be a better fit than we are.

I know you know all that, Kizuya, just trying to explain to our friend how gender is irrelevant because our Azem is already around.