What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

You’re so factually incorrect i don’t even know where to begin. The first two sacrifices were volunteers. They did sacrifice themselves for it did you not pay attention in ShB? They did have hardships prior to the final days, do the side quests and pandemonium. They suffered like anyone else. You realize that we as the WoL and the sundered sacrifice familiars on a daily basis as well too right? Egi’s are created to be used as punching bags. We summon primals in Eden simply to kill then afterwards. They did 2 sacrifices. 1 was to avert the final days. The second was to restore life to the planet. The 3rd sacrifice would be sacrificing a portion of the new life to bring back the souls lost in Zodiark.

As for Hydaelyn, you need to realize she also brought on the severe morTality with illness and incredibly reduced age. Deaths due to those are all on her hands. Multiply that by the amount of shards and yeah….you get into the trillions and we’re still feeling the effects of that to this day.

[BokoToloko]

You’re so factually incorrect i don’t even know where to begin. The first two sacrifices were volunteers. They did sacrifice themselves for it did you not pay attention in ShB? They did have hardships prior to the final days, do the side quests and pandemonium. They suffered like anyone else. You realize that we as the WoL and the sundered sacrifice familiars on a daily basis as well too right? Egi’s are created to be used as punching bags. We summon primals in Eden simply to kill then afterwards. They did 2 sacrifices. 1 was to avert the final days. The second was to restore life to the planet. The 3rd sacrifice would be sacrificing a portion of the new life to bring back the souls lost in Zodiark.

As for Hydaelyn, you need to realize she also brought on the severe morality with illness and incredibly reduced age. Deaths due to those are all on her hands. Multiply that by the amount of shards and yeah….you get into the trillions and we’re still feeling the effects of that to this day.T

Pandaemonium story isn't even full unveiled and the extent of its misery pales, to what you find after a cataclysm or after the Final Days. Their suffering PALES to what you see in, let's say, Ul'dah squalors or a garlean-occupied territory. It's not even a question. If Amauerotian daddy/sensei issues are suffering, sundereds struggles for SURVIVAL are a hell. And you CAN'T pin this on Hydaelyn because said HELL is of their own making (and at times, Ascian making). And that, where Egis and Primals enter. It's not a whim for the sundered as much as you can like to summon old Titan-Egi to die to npcs for you as it is to issue a threat to their selfsame lifes. The games goes for a good while to elaborate how Beast Tribes (or us in Eden) summon primals many times out of despair or necessity.

And you need to read more carefully because I was talking about ATTEMPTS at sacrificing involuntary parties which were TWO, wholly unrelated to the willing sacrifices made before that you mention. One that was thwarted (the 3rd sacrifice) and one that was left as temptative because it was planned to be done AFTER the rejoinings, in order to recover those sacrificed for Zodiark's summoning by sacrificing the remaining inhabitans of the source. And if you don't believe the second one was on the table, I STRONGLY suggest YOU review shadowbringers cutscenes (specifically the one where you finally meet Emet in the Capitol).

And the life span analogy is so absurd that I'll make a point by giving an equally absurd analogy. Amaurotian culture endorses literal suicide whenever someone has finalized his purpose. This philosophy has probably caused the deaths of trillions and trillions of amaurotians who would've lived a bit longer if people conviced there was more to life than a one purpose (just like G'raha conviced the Omicrons shades, shades of a culture MORE advanced than amaurotians).

To be honest I don't think we ever got an actual proper look at Ancient society; the shades Emet-Selch made were a glimpse into a specific point in time and what he wanted to show us. Elpis was also specifically a test/research facility full of scientists, and you know how scientists are. You basically have to be detached to an extent, or else you'll end up having a breakdown like Hermes did.

As someone who is into the field of Biology and research, I can tell you that scientist do not take lives as willy nilly as media would assert. For a long time, there are strict ethics regarding animal use and it's heavily emphasized to make the most of animals, along with making they live in decent conditions and are granted painless and quick deaths. They don't puke and cry for every mice or rat that is killed but they're not nearly as whimsical as Elpis researchers are.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Pandaemonium story isn't even full unveiled and the extent of its misery pales, to what you find after a cataclysm or after the Final Days. Their suffering PALES to what you see in, let's say, Ul'dah squalors or a garlean-occupied territory. It's not even a question. If Amauerotian daddy/sensei issues are suffering, sundereds struggles for SURVIVAL are a hell. And you CAN'T pin this on Hydaelyn because said HELL is of their own making (and at times, Ascian making). And that, where Egis and Primals enter. It's not a whim for the sundered as much as you can like to summon old Titan-Egi to die to npcs for you as it is to issue a threat to their selfsame lifes. The games goes for a good while to elaborate how Beast Tribes (or us in Eden) summon primals many times out of despair or immense necessity.

And you need to read more carefully because I was talking about ATTEMPTS at sacrificing involuntary parties which were TWO, wholly unrelated to the willing sacrifices made before that you mention. One that was thwarted (the 3rd sacrifice) and one that was left as temptative because it was planned to be done AFTER the rejoinings, in order to recover those sacrificed for Zodiark's summoning by sacrificing the remaining inhabitans of the source. And if you don't believe the second one was on the table, I STRONGLY suggest YOU review shadowbringers cutscenes (specifically the one where you finally meet Emet in the Capitol).

And the life span analogy is so absurd that I'll make a point by giving an equally absurd analogy. Amaurotian culture endorses literal suicide whenever someone has finalized his purpose. This philosophy has probably caused the deaths of trillions and trillions of amaurotians who would've lived a bit longer if people conviced there was more to life than a one purpose (just like G'raha conviced the Omicrons shades, shades of a culture MORE advanced than amaurotians).

So now it’s a competition of suffering. I dare say the ancients suffered far more due to the final days itself. It devastated their entire planet rather than just a couple zones for the sundered. The ascians struggled and toiled for 12,000 years to bring their people back as wellEven disregarding that though, we don’t know what life it was they would sacrifice. Sure, the poroggo familiars and sharlayan familiars and mammets are totally done out of sheer necessity. Much like how uldah’s coliseum raises and captures animals only for them to be slaughtered for entertainment purposes right? The ancients at least had funeral rites for what creations they had to undo.

[Skyborne]

...

Willy-nilly and whimsical? The animals in Elpis/Ktsis seemed to be roaming around freely for the most part. Some were in cages, though who knows for how long. Ones like the Lykaeons were also instantly unmade into magical aether particles after being captured; the description for the Lethe sightseeing point also states it was where such lifeforms have been dissolved. Certainly, much better than beagles being forcibly held down and infested with parasites on our dime. This is also a fantasy world where reincarnation is 100% a real, observable thing.

Anyway, not really interested in a high horse judgementfest, time to have fun elsewhere.

[Skyborne]

To be honest I don't think we ever got an actual proper look at Ancient society; the shades Emet-Selch made were a glimpse into a specific point in time and what he wanted to show us. Elpis was also specifically a test/research facility full of scientists, and you know how scientists are. You basically have to be detached to an extent, or else you'll end up having a breakdown like Hermes did.

It also seems like peoples' perception of the Ancients are tainted by their dislike of Emet-Selch. Disliking him is reasonable as any other preference; I myself found him contemptible and pitiful and with reddit moments at times. I highly doubt a lot of the Ancients who gave themselves for the planet would really approve of the Ascian's actions; even Emet-Selch in Elpis dumps on his future self for being a madman.

This is also a thread to dump on Endwalker; had plenty of complaints about ShB myself, and its patches especially (not a fan of 5.3 at all).

[Lauront]

Such perceptions are also tainted by their unwillingness to 1) realise that the sundered do much the same things they're criticising the ancients for, if not worse and 2) ditto with respect to RL humans. Ultimately if it's asserted that the ancients somehow 'deserved' their destruction for that (which isn't really a point the story makes), the same conclusion could follow for the sundered.

The sundering having been sprung on the ancients out of the blue, without much of an actual explanation to it, goes some way to re-contextualising the Ascians' actions, even if their methods are detrimental to the sundered IMO, meaning the latter have every right to oppose them, much as the ancients/unsundered would have every right to oppose what Venat did to them.

[Theodric]

The vast majority of suffering within the setting exists as a direct result of Venat's actions so it's fair game to tie the likes of Ul'dah's inequality and Garlemald's conquest to the consequences of the Sundering.

Furthermore, the Garleans were only seeking to conquer other nations as a direct result of being unable to naturally manipulate aether which resulted in their land being stolen bit by bit until they were forced to do whatever was necessary in order to prevent their own extinction. Incidentally, had it not been for the Ascians giving the Garleans a helping hand they may very well have gone extinct had they not become an Empire.

Let's not forget the side quest in Amaurot which revealed that Ancients who could not manipulate aether to the same extent as their brethren were given the tools in which they could do so in the name of equality. Something, I note, which differs significantly to how the Sundered reacted to the same set of circumstances...

In other words, the Garleans were forced into an unenviable situation. Much like the Ascians, who, in an effort to prevent the extinction of their own people, sought to pursue the Rejoinings...something which is again a direct consequence of Venat inflicting genocide upon the Ancients without their consent.

The Ancients also did not put any pressure on their own to 'commit suicide'. They were an exceedingly long lived race who, when they felt themselves ready, would willingly allow their aether to return to their beloved Etheirys. Had they not done as much and had lived instead for near eternity I don't doubt that the goalposts would be moved in order to criticise them for that instead.

[Lauront]

The sundering quite objectively reduced their lifespans. There is nothing "absurd" about that. It is perfectly sensible that immortal beings might want to make a return to the star after they feel they've lived a good life, and make way for future generations. But they could at least make that choice. The sundering cut lifespans to the point that the decision is taken out of their hands entirely.

As an aside, it is the goal of the Scions to reduce suffering and spread peace and prosperity - goals they remain undeterred from pursuing. In time, particularly with the calamities gone, suffering will slowly vanish from the world if such a mentality succeeds. So either they just throw up their hands and embrace suffering as inevitable, and keep civilisation at a state of constant conflict brewing beneath the surface (think Ul'dah or the Steppes), or they figure out a better way to eventually deal with the ennui that reduction in suffering can entail.

[Theodric]

How is a shark with legs much different to a pig with wings or a walking, talking frog? Both of which were explicitly created by the Sundered to serve as familiars...

To say nothing of the simple fact that we're specifically dealing with a fantasy setting that is not afraid to be whimsical at times rather than embrace gritty, serious realism at every turn.

We also learn that any entity created by the Ancients was specifically forged to benefit Etheirys in some manner. A mentality which doesn't differ terribly from the Sundered, aside from the fact that the Sundered will often violently kill creatures that are an 'annoyance' rather than learn to coexist with them.

[BokoToloko]

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But then you have to give fairness where fairness is due and isolate the whismical cases from both sides. And Sundered don't have a "Delete" spell on them so their resources for eliminating threats or "nuisances" are far more limited. Not to mention most of the exterminate cases are less about nuisance and more about threats or collection of resources. On the general, non-whimsical scope.

And, all in all, this has deviated way far from my original premise, because the point argued is that to argue Hydaelyn being a villain leads invariably to the point of Zodiark and the Amaurotians are the good guys when most of the messes we have to deal can be traced to the Ascians, Amaurotians through and thorough. I would've agreed if it was a case of neither the good guys are that good or the bad guys that bad but this is not what people is trying to convey. It's easy to misinterprete the Amaurotians as being good because the setting they live gives a flawed premise. How can we know if they're good when we see them only when they don't face meaningful crises. And if anything comes from the Final Days is that even they aren't immune to them. And Hermes and Ultima Thule drive home the point that the Amaurotian culture itself and their values aren't as perfect as they themselves want to believe. On the other hand, the Ascians DO give good context on the lenghts Ancients go when they are hard pressed. And their actions go lenghts and lenght to show they're not the good guys either and their intentions aren't one inch altruistic. They despise the sundered and if Venat gave them suffering, the Ascians did NOTHING but add three extra cups to it. And they could've just as easily try to nurture the sundered societies to improvement. Hells, they could've become the actual Warriors of Light instead of us (and so far, the game has shown how much the world has improved for out work, despite us being a fraction of an Ascian). And they don't even give a fraction of care. Hell, even their end goal doesn't involve any inhabitant of the Source as they're meant to be the remaining sacrifices so they can return to Vanilla Etheirys and act like nothing happened until the next Hermes individuals comes and brings another apocalypsis because trying to move on is apparently too much for the O so great ancients when the lowly sundered got the lesson after several civilization ending catastrophes.

Also, Midgarsomr and Tiamat himselfs hint the possibility they had a hand in Dragonsong War starting in Azys Lla as they point them to be the root of the miseries. Not to mention, we see several instance of Ascian causing disgraces left and right, specially in ARR. Also, Garlean and Allag catastrophes were full within the Ascian plans and the Ascian themselves helped them to it (Dalamud is a pretty good reminder for both cases). Also, Emet-Selch is very explicit in saying "the remaining habitants of the Source". That really isn't open to any interpretation and it being "non-Amaurotian" REALLY doesn't soften the blow of, you know, commiting more genocide for their egotistical objectives.