Summoner rework is a huge dissapointment

[IruruCece]

Seems like there's really no factual proof to support that SMN was an unpopular job in the past from what it looks like, but the opposite even if the statistics aren't highly specific enough. It's the only proof we can go for that's not mere hearsay. Basically, it's been consistently played by many players even back then.

Anyway just because a job is popular, doesn't mean it doesn't have problems. SMN had problems before, and still does even now.

SMN was only ever unpopular in the prior two expansions if you have whatever is afflicting the players who will quit ruin mage for red mage if it stops being ruin mage and becomes somewhat interesting.

[Rolder50]

I could see Summoner being unpopular between 5.0 and 5.1 because it was pretty bad then. But then they fixed it in 5.1 more or less so yeah. I think they were just scared of really bungling a rework a second time so went the super ultra safe, simple route.

[Aikaal]

Mmm, I hope I'll be able to clarify the whole "Sounds like SMN is popular and feels good to play" Popularity doesn't mean the job is good. White Mage is the prime example why it suffers from popularity.



The only healing job that has more logs on savage than WHM is SAG. We'll come back to SAG.

When we look at Caster logs;



RDM has more logs than SMN. You can see that SAM has more logs than MNK but that RPR is absolutely destroying every single DPS in term of popularity.

What does SMN have in common with RPR, SAG? SMN is basically a new job. All SAG, RPR and SMN are easy to pick up. They all have this trait in common that it's really easy to play casually. SE never hid that it was their plan. I'm not counting normal raids no one should expect a casual to upload normal raid logs.

Still, SAG and RPR are the most played in their roles, that's because they are easy to pick, fun and perform well. SMN has some exposure and everybody says how SMN is very popular. You can say SMN feels good because you're the Ultima Weapon but SMN is weak and doesn't optimize well. Yeah, it can be fun to play with but you know what's fun, when I don't get restricted on my playstyle. Not only I can't Searing Light whenever I want or Radiant Aegis, but fights aren't fun to perform on SMN. Yeah, SMN is flashy and looks cool. It suddenly feel like a success for the casuals. But WHM is pretty popular among casuals and WHM currently needs a lot of help. It always needed help because, and even in the current data, people still play WHM more than AST even if AST is insanely better.

I'll even go as far as to pick P3S specifically. The only fight when AST is played more than WHM by about 1k logs. However, Macrocosmos on AST trivializes Death's Toll. A mechanic that asks you to die and you must be fully heal and you have a healing debuff on you. Macrocosmos makes it a 1 button brain dead mechanic. If you don't have an AST, people usually just healer LB3. That's how popular WHM is despite underperforming.



As for the whole, "Was SMN unpopular in 5.x" Not sure if that can help but those are the last 2 weeks before the end of 5.4, RDM/SMN pretty much had same popularity.



If there's one last thing I would add is that, yes, flashiness and fun are a reason to play a job. Performances and how it plays in raid also plays a role in that.

[Mondschnee]

I've really come to dislike the "popularity" argument because every single person who is using it clearly means to devaluate criticism one dares to have on the job and then they wonder why that argument isn't received well. You can repeat it over and over again, it doesn't make SMNs gameplay better, nor does the aestetics argument.

The people coming here just want the job be the best it can be. Most people don't care about the "old" DoTs, they just want the job to feel more complete and play better.

[MyakotApelsia]

I've really come to dislike the "popularity" argument because every single person who is using it clearly means to devaluate criticism one dares to have on the job and then they wonder why that argument isn't received well. You can repeat it over and over again, it doesn't make SMNs gameplay better, nor does the aestetics argument.

The people coming here just want the job be the best it can be. Most people don't care about the "old" DoTs, they just want the job to feel more complete and play better.

That argument is very funny to me, because Summoner in Shadowbringers was one of most popular jobs as well, along with RDM. But if you compare SHB to EW, red mage went far, far ahead in how many it play (Becoming top 2, next to reaper), and smn remains in roughly same spot as it was before.

By their logic, SMN should've been most played job in the game (excluding reaper) cuz it got such nice rework that got so many people playing it now, but in reality, nothing really changed for smn in how its being played relative to other jobs.

[ThorneDynasty]

I've really come to dislike the "popularity" argument because every single person who is using it clearly means to devaluate criticism one dares to have on the job and then they wonder why that argument isn't received well. You can repeat it over and over again, it doesn't make SMNs gameplay better, nor does the aestetics argument.

The people coming here just want the job be the best it can be. Most people don't care about the "old" DoTs, they just want the job to feel more complete and play better.

Case in a point, conveniently ignored in this entire discussion, BLM is right there as the least popular one. It's also one of the best designed jobs in the game, because the devs actually play it instead of arbitrarily deciding it needs to be reworked because it's not popular enough. It's when they buy hard into the popularity argument you tend to get hot messes, like the entire damn healer role.

[Hanayumi]

Love the Smn rework but there is 100% a feeling that it is missing something, legit spent a few times running through its rotation after getting to lv90 and then looked at the action list thinking "I must missing a skill..." Bahamut/Phoenix and the summons seem fine enough but the aetherflow and ruin stuff feel very off...

[Teno]

Snip

I think it's still too early to say about class popularity in terms of gameplay, things remain fresh. And in regards to sage for instance, it's still a healer, with all the issues associated with the role. It's badass for sure, and if it's fun, it's most likely relative to other healers. The role gameplay is still bad on multiple accounts.

[Gruntler]

I think it's still too early to say about class popularity in terms of gameplay, things remain fresh. And in regards to sage for instance, it's still a healer, with all the issues associated with the role. It's badass for sure, and if it's fun, it's most likely relative to other healers. The role gameplay is still bad on multiple accounts.

It depends on an overall context.

RDM is consistantly popular, has been since SB, and the only thing that could keep it down was it playing like shit at the start of ShB and the feeling of it being an underperformer. EW making a good job play great certainly helps though.

SMN is a new job, yes, but there's also something to be said for it feeling good for many players to play. Being a new job is no guarantee of popularity--look at MCH's history. HW? The only reason it was popular was 2 years of pressure forcing people to play it because of the meta locking it in. Until it was locked in, it was last place. SB? Reworked MCH? Last place. ShB? New job, completely different. Still not popular, but no longer last place. Why? Job didn't feel awful to play for most players.

Jobs can be completely meta but people will resist playing it if it plays like garbage to get there. So, the popularity of SMN does mean yes, it's new, but it also means it's new AND there's something those players like about it.

This doesn't mean it can't be improved, but it does mean arguments that 'no one likes it and no one likes the gameplay' are based on a false premise at worst, unsubstantiated premise at best.

It's better to stick to ways that the current job-flow can be improved (and there IS room for improvement) rather than try to return back to the scuffed gameplay of the past. It's same as why SE won't listen to MCH feedback begging for the return of the HW iteration of the job or even SB iteration. The job was shit, and SE has the numbers to prove it.

[dinnertime]

I'll admit, whenever some people mention "SMN is popular now so it's good" they never say anything constructive like pointing out any (both) pros and cons about the technical aspects of the job. They simply attack and dismiss people who have any contradicting opinions with really nothing to back up claims.

Most people I've seen who criticize the rework have been mostly respectful, point out BOTH pros and cons, even saying that the job doesn't have to revert back to what it used to be but built upon its current foundation. It's honestly telling who does and *doesn't* care about the job's overall health.

I think it's still too early to say about class popularity in terms of gameplay, things remain fresh. And in regards to sage for instance, it's still a healer, with all the issues associated with the role. It's badass for sure, and if it's fun, it's most likely relative to other healers. The role gameplay is still bad on multiple accounts.

Again people are using the popularity argument to defend the rework, when everyone else is aware it's being played at the moment simply because it got reworked.