Summoner rework is a huge dissapointment

[LeonKeyh]

Death design is mechanically similar to dots from HW and the dots from healers/SAM.

A timer you look after and need to keep running.

It works exactly the same but it's not a dot since the end result is completely different.

If that's the argument being made, then you can replace RPR in that list with DRG since their DoT isn't a managed timer, it's just a part of their rotation.

Man, I am really trying to stay away from being too dismissive, but as a new SMN Main who finally enjoys the class, this constant bashing is getting very old, very fast.

Anecdotally, I just do not see this doom and gloom reflected in the actual playerbase. There has been a huge increase if SMN's recently, up from what was one of, if not the, lowest played DPS job.

Popularity isn't necessarily a good example of how much something is enjoyed. SMN is essentially the third new job of the expansion, a lot of people are going to check it out.

I'm with you in that I enjoy the new SMN, it's a really nice "chill" class like RDM was for me. Something that I could play without putting much thought into it. However, it's definitely a little _too_ dumbed down especially in synced content. Also, there are various things that are just poor design (Searing Light/Aegis). It has a decent base, but definitely needs work.

[Silly_Rabbit]

Had a quick look at amount of parses on ff logs and in normal raids summoner is 2nd in amount of parses only behind reaper. On savage it is on 4th place in amount of parses. Sounds like it's really popular after rework.

[aveyond-dreams]

The most entertaining aspect of all this is how the job is still widely beloved in game, and besides wanting to see reasonable and meaningful improvements, people are far better off than they've ever been. I am physically unable to escape other Summoners in game. Quite literally they are everywhere. If the data mentioned above is correct, it sounds like savage players have taken to Summoner after all the complaining of how the job was allegedly too boring in savage? When that's the busiest content in-game? That sure was...a moment.

All the bashing in the world isn't going to make them revert things back or betray current Summoner's fanbase by throwing them curveballs like adding Bio/Miasma/Bane back. Dots and similar "busywork" buffs/debuffs can go the way of bowmage too, for that matter. It's needless button bloat and that spaced is better off being used for anything else.

[Rolder50]

Had a quick look at amount of parses on ff logs and in normal raids summoner is 2nd in amount of parses only behind reaper. On savage it is on 4th place in amount of parses. Sounds like it's really popular after rework.

Might want to include that it's in fourth behind it's fellow caster Red Mage, whom does everything Summoner can but better.

[tearagion]

Man, I am really trying to stay away from being too dismissive, but as a new SMN Main who finally enjoys the class, this constant bashing is getting very old, very fast.

Anecdotally, I just do not see this doom and gloom reflected in the actual playerbase. There has been a huge increase if SMN's recently, up from what was one of, if not the, lowest played DPS job.

It is easier due to a lack of resources management, but it looks sick, provides a wonderful entry into Caster DPS (Especially coming from rDPS) and is a solid foundation for future improvements.

Minding a few nitpicks...

* Carby needs to go (Divorce Searing Light and Aegis from Carby)
* Ifrit still feels disappointing

...this class is by far the most fun I have had on DPS.

I really hope they continue to add to this base and leave the jank and garbage of old SMN dead and buried with other terrible iterations of jobs (Looking at you bowmage).

Expect the "bashing" (read: criticism) to continue.

Anecdotes are worthless, everyone I talk to, including people who never played SMN before, see the rework as an absolute abomination. This anecdote is also worthless. It was very far from the "least played dps job" dunno where you got this perception.

The "wonderful entry" into casters already existed: Red Mage. Summoner basically isn't a caster anymore; the only thing maintaining the identity is the Intelligence stat on their gear.

The fun you have on it doesn't matter, seeing as the fun old SMN mains had on old SMN didn't matter either.

Things you don't like aren't just "terrible" or "jank" or "garbage". This is an extremely lazy way to (mis)characterize previous job iterations. This rework is a good base in the same way lancer is a good base to DRG. Morbidly rudimentary and underdeveloped.

make them...betray current Summoner's fanbase

this has never happened before and will surely never happen in the future, for sure, yep, uhuh, yes

[MrJPtheAssassin]

As said before popularity isn't a good way to judge a job performance and how much it is being enjoyed. A good example is whm, it's not in the greatest spot right now but it is still popular. New smn is new and shiny so of course, it going to be very popular especially in normal/casual content. Nothing wrong with that of course I think the skill floor is fine for smn since it does allow newer players and more casual players to enjoy it but what is the problem is its skill ceiling and overall optimization choices. That is what I want to see their work on right now, not just in two years either. There are things the dev team can do now to make smn better in a lot of areas. One thing I saw from a post in this thread by @Dahlinea I really like, instead of having demis on a timer you work for them by summoning T/G/I to get the gems and then spend those gems to summon a demi. I think this is something devs could do in a patch or patches, of course, it would req. one new button to be added, and that is a way to get gems for your opener like rdm's manafiction or blm's amplifier. Either way, my point is I want them to continue to work on smn even during the course of EW, and the only way they do that is for posts like this and others to happen so they know ppl are unhappy with new smn even though it has good things about it.

[Rolder50]

All the bashing in the world isn't going to make them revert things back or betray current Summoner's fanbase by throwing them curveballs like adding Bio/Miasma/Bane back. Dots and similar "busywork" buffs/debuffs can go the way of bowmage too, for that matter. It's needless button bloat and that spaced is better off being used for anything else.

You mean like when they betrayed the fanbase in Shadowbringers when they totally changed the job? Please, they'll do it without a second thought.

[aveyond-dreams]

Given the state of the alleged "fanbase" old SMN being split between 2 groups-people who wanted to be FF Summoners and coped with the kit they were forced to put up with, and the...other group who I'm not going to describe in detail.

The rework happens, and player numbers surge. I would hope by now that the poison mages of eld have since moved on to other jobs, but they may still be processing the state of affairs. With how often they told others to "adapt" to SMN's horrific state for so many years, it is surprising now they fail to do just that. Anyway, there are things to improve involving the earlier experience, adding the missing primals, etc but ultimately it's nothing that demands another rework or the reintroduction of mechanics everyone already passed on.

But by all means, continue to push for the return of micromanagement: the job or the addition of meaningless busywork. I'll be the first to drop Summoner if they abandon their present course and return to the old ways, and proceed to play Red/Black Mage like I've been doing since forever. Though anyone who reads the mood in-game and that of most players can see why such a thing is unlikely to happen. 80/20 rule-and sadly the complexity lovers fall in the minority here.

[IruruCece]

But by all means, continue to push for the return of micromanagement: the job or the addition of meaningless busywork.

We will, in hopes that you actually follow through with your promise.

[dinnertime]

Correct me if I'm wrong but SMN even back then wasn't even an unpopular job. It had a lot of appeal because it did high DPS, sometimes powercreeping BLM and people wanted to take advantage of that. That and it had more appeal than BLM for being more mobile.

It was not unpopular in the slightest.