What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Sicno]

They came to a point where they said "this is perfection" and then stopped changing, growing, or maturing. They stagnated. I don't think the message in EW is so much "perfect is bad" as much as "you should never stop trying to do better".

The implication that "perfect is bad" is hard to shake off when they show different societies which reached different states of "fulfillment", "enlightenment", "perfection", "immortality", etc. and they all "reached" a catastrophic end (in some cases by nothing more than the power of the writer's pen imo and not a natural progression of events). Not a single one managed to keep living their lives. How can you shake off the implication that reaching such a state is indeed a bad thing with such representation?

But to be completely honest all those societies feel very manufactured for the sole purpose of being lectured by our cast of protagonists from a position as imperfect beings. It doesn't even matter if their speech made any sense or not. The point is "these imperfect beigns are lecturing far more perfect or powerful beings, validating Venat's decision to make the world as imperfect as possible". I'll agree that the true message isn't "perfect is bad" but as others have said earlier in the thread it's "not being on the protagonists side is bad".

[Denji]

The implication that "perfect is bad" is hard to shake off when they show different societies which reached different states of "fulfillment", "enlightenment", "perfection", "immortality", etc. and they all "reached" a catastrophic end (in some cases by nothing more than the power of the writer's pen imo and not a natural progression of events). Not a single one managed to keep living their lives. How can you shake off the implication that reaching such a state is indeed a bad thing with such representation?

But to be completely honest all those societies feel very manufactured for the sole purpose of beign lectured by our cast of protagonists from a position as imperfect beings. It doesn't even matter if their speech made any sense or not. The point is "these imperfect beigns are lecturing far more perfect or powerful beings, validating Venat's decision to make the world as imperfect as possible". I'll agree that the true message isn't "perfect is bad" but as others have said earlier in the thread it's "not being on the protagonists side is bad".

of course they seem manufactured, meition created them from what she could salvage and pieced it all together. it's all gonna slant toward her(their) personal experiences rather than anything that's actually happened because it's been stated time and time again that memories are wiped when you die and return to the aether, excluding of course the people who temporarily linger because they feel they have not completed an important task in life which, again would shift the narrative toward something negative.

everyone is forgetting here that hermes threw literal 3 week old children into the cosmos and told them to find an answer to a question that couldn't actually be answered.

[Sicno]

of course they seem manufactured, meition created them from...

No, what I mean by "manufactured" is that the hand of the writer is so heavy you can almost see their fingernails on the screen. Even accounting for discrepancies in Meteion's reproductions it's clear that the intent is to show how our "sundered", "imperfect", etc. beings can find more meaning in life than them, who reached the pinnacle of whatever it is they wanted to achieve (except for the dragons). That having the main cast prevail over them is proof of their determination, principles, etc. and that Venat was "right" in creating such beings.

[Rulakir]

If only someone had dropped a gaming console in that world. They'd soon find themselves with too little time.

Yeah, it was annoying that "perfection" basically ended up meaning bored and/or disillusioned. My mother used to say boredom is a choice and she could always find things to do. I couldn't help but think of that with a few of the 'doomed' civilizations.

And this is the weird thing. The Ancients didn’t stop striving to do better. They got essentially detoured, but it’s as Hythlodaeus says. After all was said and done they planned to go back to their duties of being the stewards of the star and bettering it. So i’m curious what the message with them is.

The message is sundered > unsundered. EW seemed intent on undermining the Ancients in every possible way by implying they were beyond saving and that dynamis somehow makes the sundered superior (even though as far as I'm concerned that case was never made). It's unfortunate the most interesting and compelling arcs for two expansions now have been from a past civilization rather than anything current.

[dapperfaffer]

Dont think the blessing has any impact on the color of the soul seeing that only what the blessing do is to protect the aether from corruption. like invisible sphere around the soul.

Isn't that the Echo that does that?

[Jandor]

Isn't that the Echo that does that?

The blessing is apparently the echo on steroids.

[Fayt1203]

Isn't that the Echo that does that?

The Echo is a fraction of the power of an ancient, a residual power that normally rests within all life in the Source and its reflections, there is a way to trigger awakening to the Echo which often lead to experience a vision of a star-shower falling from a burning sky. and seeing that we are sunderd we need blessing or the traveler's ward as Venat called it for protection.

Jandor has a simpler term,

The blessing is apparently the echo on steroids.

[Divinemights]

Criticizing Venat's action is like criticizing historical character by today's moral standard.
It is not making any sense just like you are criticizing 70s computers for being slow in year 2022.
Morality is something that humanity work hard to develop in a progressive track.
You will always find morality of the pass inferior with today's standard.
Criticizing historical figures for a lack of awareness of a morality that was yet to emerge is absurd.

[tokinokanatae]

Criticizing Venat's action is like criticizing historical character by today's moral standard.
It is not making any sense just like you are criticizing 70s computers for being slow in year 2022.
Morality is something that humanity work hard to develop in a progressive track.
You will always find morality of the pass inferior with today's standard.
Criticizing historical figures for a lack of awareness of a morality that was yet to emerge is absurd.

Venat is not real and was written by modern people.

[Lauront]

Yeah, it was annoying that "perfection" basically ended up meaning bored and/or disillusioned. My mother used to say boredom is a choice and she could always find things to do. I couldn't help but think of that with a few of the 'doomed' civilizations.



The message is sundered > unsundered. EW seemed intent on undermining the Ancients in every possible way by implying they were beyond saving and that dynamis somehow makes the sundered superior (even though as far as I'm concerned that case was never made). It's unfortunate the most interesting and compelling arcs for two expansions now have been from a past civilization rather than anything current.

The only way they can even make a threat out of it is through the suggestion that eventually she will absorb so much it will overwhelm the barrier protecting the star, plus it is obviously a rather novel form of energy so less well understood and so she had some element of "surprise" to her advantage, since next to no civilisation she encountered seemed to have mastered its manipulation. In the end, she is overcome by a handful of sundered and the barrier Zodiark maintains, even sundered, lasts for at least 12k years. While this energy may be more abundant in certain regions of space, and thus have value if you want to harness it for travel, I think Hermes was under-selling just how much weaker it is. This, coupled with the fact that the Plenty felt rather contrived as a scenario (for the reason you mention), did not really suffice push that point if it was what they were going for. My own view is that they would have adjusted as necessary if given a full explanation of what Meteion had found (and ended up) and where their pursuits could end (again if we take the Plenty as a possible outcome), plus the state of the moribund stars and this supposed eventual "heat death" of the universe would also no doubt provide stimulating projects. Suddenly you have a whole bunch of stars you can revive.

As Sicno mentioned, all the scenarios felt contrived to some extent, and it's not like any of the Scions are dropping their own striving for "better tomorrows". I just find it comical that the poster girl just shrugs off a question that vexed the Ea to the point that they lost their entire purpose. I very much doubt they're trying to push Hermes's exhortation to the Lykaones (enacted by Zenos as well) as the answer to despair (=exist and forge your own purpose even if you bring nothing of value to anyone or anything else - even if you are detrimental to them - and this will allow you to survive or thrive in the face of despair), as somehow a morally superior stance to all those who strive to do better - in the end, even this mindset would lead to eventual despair when no one sees any value in engaging you and you can't even sate your hedonistic desires, i.e. Alisaie's response to Zenos. I doubt that a low-level state of constant managed strife and suffering, as exists in a place like Ul'dah or the Steppes, is being presented as the ideal, even if the story would lead one to believe these places are built to last longer term (they've barely even lasted a fraction of the time some of these ancient societies are implied to have lasted.) Such viewpoints just seem to be invoked as instrumentally useful in driving back Meteion, but not as worthwhile viewpoints beyond that. Rather, I believe the point is simply that you can risk making the more positive things in life lose their taste by eradicating all their negative counterparts, but how well they made that point is very much up for debate, and I consider that they did so clumsily and that the contrived nature of these scenarios did not help. IMO, on that point, the sundered may very well succumb to such a problem themselves in the future, especially with the calamities out the way and the desire to spread peace and prosperity and minimise suffering still there. Even if lessons are learnt now about the dangers of pursuing perfection (as presented), they will not last eternally and may even be doubted eventually. These impulses remain, and it's not like they're going to put anyone off the ideal of a world free of wars, death through ageing, poverty, disease, hunger etc., provided they find something to keep themselves occupied with... in which case, perhaps finding a way to deal with that problem rather than abandoning perfectionist ideals is the proper response. I certainly reject the notion that these ideals should be dropped.

Isn't that the Echo that does that?

It is, certainly as per all lore to date. What Venat bestowed on the WoL is as others mentioned a "traveller's ward", intended to ward off aetheric corruption, but IMO it is more than this, because she is actively funnelling her power into it. This is why Midgardsormr eventually cuts off the connection to it (temporarily), because it taxes her so greatly, with the idea that the WoL should become a bit stronger to rely less on her - eventually it's restored in full. Ultimately, she is a primal, so while it may have started as some traveller's ward, my belief based on the evidence we have is that it's also a conduit for funnelling her primal power into her champion. Other primals do this as well. After all, it was for their blessing that G'raha wanted to summon the WoL to the First to deal with the Lightwardens, and it is their blessing which Hades curses during the fight, and tries to drown out through the darkness he's able to conjure. I'd have to agree though that there's nothing in all that which would necessarily make the hue of a soul change.