What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[KizuyaKatogami]

They came to a point where they said "this is perfection" and then stopped changing, growing, or maturing. They stagnated. I don't think the message in EW is so much "perfect is bad" as much as "you should never stop trying to do better".

And this is the weird thing. The Ancients didn’t stop striving to do better. They got essentially detoured, but it’s as Hythlodaeus says. After all was said and done they planned to go back to their duties of being the stewards of the star and bettering it. So i’m curious what the message with them is.

[Vahlnir]

And this is the weird thing. The Ancients didn’t stop striving to do better. They got essentially detoured, but it’s as Hythlodaeus says. After all was said and done they planned to go back to their duties of being the stewards of the star and bettering it. So i’m curious what the message with them is.

"Curiosity killed the cat" probably. lol

[Rulakir]

If only someone had dropped a gaming console in that world. They'd soon find themselves with too little time.

Yeah, it was annoying that "perfection" basically ended up meaning bored and/or disillusioned. My mother used to say boredom is a choice and she could always find things to do. I couldn't help but think of that with a few of the 'doomed' civilizations.

And this is the weird thing. The Ancients didn’t stop striving to do better. They got essentially detoured, but it’s as Hythlodaeus says. After all was said and done they planned to go back to their duties of being the stewards of the star and bettering it. So i’m curious what the message with them is.

The message is sundered > unsundered. EW seemed intent on undermining the Ancients in every possible way by implying they were beyond saving and that dynamis somehow makes the sundered superior (even though as far as I'm concerned that case was never made). It's unfortunate the most interesting and compelling arcs for two expansions now have been from a past civilization rather than anything current.

[TaleraRistain]

And this is the weird thing. The Ancients didn’t stop striving to do better. They got essentially detoured, but it’s as Hythlodaeus says. After all was said and done they planned to go back to their duties of being the stewards of the star and bettering it. So i’m curious what the message with them is.

But they did stop striving to do better. What are their metrics for what is good for the star? They were going to write off the serpent because it couldn't fly. Because it was not as it was planned to be. But sometimes the most worthwhile innovations and leaps forward come from accidents.

Then there's the situation with the creations that were killing other creations. They decided based on their own preset ideas of what was right that something like that wouldn't be of use to the star. But they didn't consider that may there was something that sort of danger could teach other creatures. We shouldn't be in conflict all the time, but we can grow from it.

They didn't show indication they could think outside the box like this. And so they stopped progressing as a species.

Also....why does everything have to have a use? Why doesn't something useless deserve to also exist?

[KizuyaKatogami]

But they did stop striving to do better. What are their metrics for what is good for the star? They were going to write off the serpent because it couldn't fly. Because it was not as it was planned to be. But sometimes the most worthwhile innovations and leaps forward come from accidents.

Then there's the situation with the creations that were killing other creations. They decided based on their own preset ideas of what was right that something like that wouldn't be of use to the star. But they didn't consider that may there was something that sort of danger could teach other creatures. We shouldn't be in conflict all the time, but we can grow from it.

They didn't show indication they could think outside the box like this. And so they stopped progressing as a species.

Also....why does everything have to have a use? Why doesn't something useless deserve to also exist?

There’s multiple inferences that they were advancing, especially with the various breakthroughs we see, in pandemonium for example with Phoenix or even the Guardian Forces they were studying.They didn’t stop striving to do better i’m not sure where you’re getting that from. You’re trying to apply our real world logic to this which just doesn’t work. Pandemonium also shows that there were some creations that weren’t just killed off for being dangerous. They sealed them in there and would study them instead of just getting rid of them. If something is useless…then there’s not really a reason for it to exist is there? They kind of did show they could think outside the box time and time again. especially when the final days hit. Also again. not getting this weird headcanon you have that they stopped progressing when we’re shown numerous examples of their progression and developments. It seems like some people just like to argue ancients bad and get headcanon twisted into the narrative.

[EaraGrace]

There’s multiple inferences that they were advancing, especially with the various breakthroughs we see, in pandemonium for example with Phoenix or even the Guardian Forces they were studying.They didn’t stop striving to do better i’m not sure where you’re getting that from.

But the question is what is better? When Hermes asks what’s the point, what answer do the Ancients have? If they say for the betterment of star, the question is why care? Why care when your mentor is dead, when you know the betterment of the star means nothing more than the constant creation and killing of creations with souls and feelings of their own?

You’re trying to apply our real world logic to this which just doesn’t work.

They’re human, they’re living beings with thoughts, feelings and desires. You certainly can.

Pandemonium also shows that there were some creations that weren’t just killed off for being dangerous. They sealed them in there and would study them instead of just getting rid of them. If something is useless…then there’s not really a reason for it to exist is there?

No life's existence should be based on arbitrary utility should it? And sealing them away is indeed more moral, but the fact was they sealed them for nothing more than study. Quality of life wasn’t exactly a concern.

They kind of did show they could think outside the box time and time again. especially when the final days hit. Also again. not getting this weird headcanon you have that they stopped progressing when we’re shown numerous examples of their progression and developments. It seems like some people just like to argue ancients bad and get headcanon twisted into the narrative.

Let’s see how great their progress was when we reach deeper into Pandaemonium. They left it’s teleporter overgrown and abandoned for a reason.

Because that's just the way the game presents these societies. A very basic caricaturization of different perceptions of "perfection" or "the peak" because they're not meant to be working societies, they're just hero fodder. It's "mustache-curling laughing villains" levels of caricaturization. They themselves believe their designs to be perfect but the 5 year old audience can easily point at the flaws in their plan and then cheer when the heroes do just that.

The game offers answers that the character fee gives their lives meaning. Their not meant to be answers in themselves, but examples of people establishing why they want to exist. The Ea are free to find their own path, as are the dragons and the Omicron. All the answers we see are just part of the larger answer.

Thy life is a riddle,
To bear rapture and sorrow.
To listen, to suffer,
To entrust unto Tomorrow.
In one fleeting moment,
From the land doth life flow.
Yet in one fleeting moment,
For anew it doth grow.
In the same fleeting moment,
Thou must live, die and know.

[KizuyaKatogami]

But the question is what is better? When Hermes asks what’s the point, what answer do the Ancients have? If they say for the betterment of star, the question is why care? Why care when your mentor is dead, when you know the betterment of the star means nothing more than the constant creation and killing of creations with souls and feelings of their own?



They’re human, they’re living beings with thoughts, feelings and desires. You certainly can.



No life's existence should be based on arbitrary utility should it? And sealing them away is indeed more moral, but the fact was they sealed them for nothing more than study. Quality of life wasn’t exactly a concern.



Let’s see how great their progress was when we reach deeper into Pandaemonium. They left it’s teleporter overgrown and abandoned for a reason.



The game offers answers that the character fee gives their lives meaning. Their not meant to be answers in themselves, but examples of people establishing why they want to exist. The Ea are free to find their own path, as are the dragons and the Omicron. All the answers we see are just part of the larger answer.

Here we go again ignoring context to suit your narrative. Not all creations had souls, it was random whether they gained souls or not but also incredibly rare. Most of them were soulless constructs. However if we’re going to start arguing over them killing soulless constructs, then you had better be waving your no-no stick at the scions and wol. Summoning primals in Eden just to kill them without their consent, summoning numerous familiars and egi’s just to let them get battered in battle etc. Funny how i never saw any of you arguing against it until the Ancients came into the picture. Seems like a heavy dose of situation bias to me. The eden primals’ lives were based on arbitrary utility so try again unless you’re willing to shame the wol and scions for it, in which case they’re not better than the ancients.

[Skyborne]

I've been lurking for ages and I pretty much agree 99.9% with posters like Rulakir, Veloran, Lauront, Kizuya, etc. Just my own thoughts too...

I also 100% agree with the themes presented in the game: happiness is hollow without sadness, we must all find our own meaning in life, etc. However, even though FF14 and FF in general has never been subtle, it just felt like a gorilla beating me with a sledgehammer with these 'themes', at the expense of the plot itself. It was all basically a victory lap for the Scions/WoL, and it also felt very meta, like Yoshida himself was praising us for sitting through this all. The music did the heavy lifting and it's as if someone locked Ishikawa in a dark closet for weeks with nothing but a bottle of booze and a copy of Undertale. I would say the sensation I felt the most was 'nausea'.

It was to the point where it made me reconsidered my agreement with these themes, and to ponder the merits of the opposite. Big backfire. Or was that the intent? Anyway, that Bitter Amaurotine caricature strawman in Venat's Chuunibyou Manifesto scene is the true hero. Take me back to Amaurot, where I can hang out with people who actually feel like natural and organic old friends and not bland rich kid book club snobs who just butter me up so I'll be their muscle. And frig off, live-laugh-love mary sue sparkleprincess, you aren't my mom.

I could write way way more about my thoughts on the characters and story elements, but that would basically take up a small novel. And I've already ranted about it all at length to my friends. Unless they make any antag more compelling than the Ancients/Ascians/Garleans, I may just tune out from the story/lore I have grown so attached to...

EDIT: and for the record, I consider myself a sentimental person who feels strongly and isn't above getting choked up on books/movies/games. I also enjoy Kingdom Hearts and all of its funcringe and character moments. But this...

[KizuyaKatogami]

I've been lurking for ages and I pretty much agree 99.9% with posters like Rulakir, Veloran, Lauront, Kizuya, etc. Just my own thoughts too...

I also 100% agree with the themes presented in the game: happiness is hollow without sadness, we must all find our own meaning in life, etc. However, even though FF14 and FF in general has never been subtle, it just felt like a gorilla beating me with a sledgehammer with these 'themes', at the expense of the plot itself. It was all basically a victory lap for the Scions/WoL, and it also felt very meta, like Yoshida himself was praising us for sitting through this all. The music did the heavy lifting and it's as if someone locked Ishikawa in a dark closet for weeks with nothing but a bottle of booze and a copy of Undertale. I would say the sensation I felt the most was 'nausea'.

It was to the point where it made me reconsidered my agreement with these themes, and to ponder the merits of the opposite. Big backfire. Or was that the intent? Anyway, that Bitter Amaurotine caricature strawman in Venat's Chuunibyou Manifesto scene is the true hero. Take me back to Amaurot, where I can hang out with people who actually feel like natural and organic old friends and not bland rich kid book club snobs who just butter me up so I'll be their muscle. And frig off, live-laugh-love mary sue sparkleprincess, you aren't my mom.

I could write way way more about my thoughts on the characters and story elements, but that would basically take up a small novel. And I've already ranted about it all at length to my friends. Unless they make any antag more compelling than the Ancients/Ascians/Garleans, I may just tune out from the story/lore I have grown so attached to...

Agreed. Personally i find it so disappointing getting to spend time with characters like Hythlo and Emet and Elidibus who i find far more interesting, and then having to go back to what i find, bland cardboard scions. Pretty sad that the antagonists are just so much more interesting than the protags. Especially given how long we’ve had to deal with them. Especially when they never suffer near the amount as antagonists do, story feels very one sided in that retrospect. Especially in an expansion that beats you in the head with suffering, it’s incredibly confusing when i can’t even think of a time the scions have suffered for a few expansions.

[EaraGrace]

Here we go again ignoring context to suit your narrative.

That’s rich coming from you Kizuya.

Not all creations had souls, it was random whether they gained souls or not but also incredibly rare.

None of this is true. Souls are granted to beings the star deems as being capable of life in accordance with nature.

As Hades well knew, souls spontaneously manifested within creatures that were born in accordance with the laws of nature. It was a gift from the star itself, long held to be impossible to recreate. No artificial being, no matter how subtly sculpted in the image of nature, could come to possess a soul. Such creations occupied a separate classification known as arcane entities.

Hermes makes clear that many of the animals we see in Elpis are not arcane entities, in our conversations on the lightning elementals he makes clear the distinction using the Petalouda as an example.

Most of them were soulless constructs. However if we’re going to start arguing over them killing soulless constructs, then you had better be waving your no-no stick at the scions and wol. Summoning primals in Eden just to kill them without their consent, summoning numerous familiars and egi’s just to let them get battered in battle etc. Funny how i never saw any of you arguing against it until the Ancients came into the picture. Seems like a heavy dose of situation bias to me. The eden primals’ lives were based on arbitrary utility so try again unless you’re willing to shame the wol and scions for it, in which case they’re not better than the ancients.

You’re arguing against a strawman of your own creation again. I wish I could ask Hythlo if it also has a soul.

Remember I was the one who argued for that distinction so don’t pretend that I’ve contradicted that. Many creations were ensouled, this is a fact.