The idea that we need to DPS must go.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

If people really want to DPS that bad, play a proper DPS class. Healers are there to heal, not try to milk a stat that's already so low and do next to nothing helpful for the group.

People of all varying skill level make mistake from time to time. What matters is their history & how ‘consistently’ it happens. If a healer actually let their party die from lack of healing fairly often then they definitely should hold their horses & play in more reserved manner until they get used to the flow. And no, I’m not counting healing people who collects vuln stacks like cookies. Mistakes happens yes but there’s a point where it becomes obvious whether it’s worthy to upkeep these individuals or not.

None of us were there to witness what actually happened in your run so I can only take it with grain of salt; bad runs happens from time to time. It’s nothing new. I’d wager the mistake from their side was to blow most, if not all of their instants too early & was too late to hardcast any heals to prevent deaths.

Not sure what you meant by ‘stat’, but I’ll bite.

Unlike in many other MMO, XIV healers dps actually makes up a respectable portion of party’s overall damage, it’s definitely not “next to nothing”. In dailies when I run with a friend who regularly opens up the can of worms, I’d learn that as a healer I would often dish out around the same, and sometimes even outdamaging the DPSes in the party. A decent DPS should be outdamaging me and be about 30% higher or more (even better!). Take my damage away in these scenarios then everything will be a slog to clear.

[Deveryn]

Not sure what you meant by ‘stat’, but I’ll bite.

DH. Direct Hit Rate. The stat healers and tanks lack. Why are healers melding for a stat that starts off as low as it does and ultimately making it harder for themselves to keep a group running through basic mechanics? There's no practical reason melding this, even in harder content. Bumping determination means heals and nukes are stronger and you ultimately get to heal for more with fewer casts and DPS til your heart's content.

[Sebazy]

DH. Direct Hit Rate. The stat healers and tanks lack. Why are healers melding for a stat that starts off as low as it does and ultimately making it harder for themselves to keep a group running through basic mechanics? There's no practical reason melding this, even in harder content. Bumping determination means heals and nukes are stronger and you ultimately get to heal for more with fewer casts and DPS til your heart's content.

Why not? Sub stats have a minuscule effect on healers in the grand scheme of things. We could meld full tenacity for all it’s worth and it’d still only register as a small percentage on our logs

[Rilifane]

DH. Direct Hit Rate. The stat healers and tanks lack. Why are healers melding for a stat that starts off as low as it does and ultimately making it harder for themselves to keep a group running through basic mechanics? There's no practical reason melding this, even in harder content. Bumping determination means heals and nukes are stronger and you ultimately get to heal for more with fewer casts and DPS til your heart's content.

Did you actually research how miniscule the heal gain from Det over DH hit is?
It's low enough that it doesn't even warrant melding Det over DH in the most difficult endgame content or first week. The difference between full DH and full Det meld is in the range of single digit %. If you die to an aoe in casual content that is designed to put as little pressure on healers as possible, it has absolutely nothing to do with melds. Nothing.
And there is a very practical reason to meld DH over Det: more healer dps. 4% more heal will never make the difference between having to heal twice vs just once. Det and DH are close than ever in terms of dps gain but DH is still slightly ahead and the additional heal from Det is pitiful.

All it means is that this person made a mistake and didn't use enough oGCD to heal the damage.
People make mistakes. If I would go to the forum and complain everytime someone made a mistake that cost me a little bit of time in a dungeon of all things, then I'd have to demand that dps only have a single button that does high single target damage with falloff so it's also their aoe button, tanks wouldn't have stances and only a 1-2 combo and nothing else so they can "focus on mitigation", any form of support from dps would automatically apply.
Someone made a mistake and you died.
So what?
This happened countless times to every single person here for various reasons: tank not having stance, tank not using mitigation, tank not using aoe, dps not using aoe, dps standing in the bad, dps standing in Narnia, dps with ress not ressing, co heal not healing, co heal not ressing ...
You had one bad experience. As far as arguments against healers melding DH or dpsing in general go, that's pitiful. And I have yet to see a good argument against either.

[Deveryn]

Did you actually research how miniscule the heal gain from Det over DH hit is?
It's low enough that it doesn't even warrant melding Det over DH in the most difficult endgame content or first week. The difference between full DH and full Det meld is in the range of single digit %. If you die to an aoe in casual content that is designed to put as little pressure on healers as possible, it has absolutely nothing to do with melds. Nothing.
And there is a very practical reason to meld DH over Det: more healer dps. 4% more heal will never make the difference between having to heal twice vs just once. Det and DH are close than ever in terms of dps gain but DH is still slightly ahead and the additional heal from Det is pitiful.

All it means is that this person made a mistake and didn't use enough oGCD to heal the damage.
People make mistakes. If I would go to the forum and complain everytime someone made a mistake that cost me a little bit of time in a dungeon of all things, then I'd have to demand that dps only have a single button that does high single target damage with falloff so it's also their aoe button, tanks wouldn't have stances and only a 1-2 combo and nothing else so they can "focus on mitigation", any form of support from dps would automatically apply.
Someone made a mistake and you died.
So what?
This happened countless times to every single person here for various reasons: tank not having stance, tank not using mitigation, tank not using aoe, dps not using aoe, dps standing in the bad, dps standing in Narnia, dps with ress not ressing, co heal not healing, co heal not ressing ...
You had one bad experience. As far as arguments against healers melding DH or dpsing in general go, that's pitiful. And I have yet to see a good argument against either.

I refuse to believe that a stat that starts out at a third the value of other core stats actually brings significant value to anything.

Frankly, It's less about the numbers and more about the mentality which ends up making bad healers out of people. This wasn't an honest mistake. (You don't accidentally pentameld DH in a bunch of pieces of gear.) This was done with intent and it was apparent through the whole run of the dungeon. As the title of this thread suggests, the idea that healers need to DPS needs to go. Everything goes smoother when you have someone that's actually focused on helping maintain the people that actually bring the DPS.

[Sebazy]

I refuse to believe that a stat that starts out at a third the value of other core stats actually brings significant value to anything.

Frankly, It's less about the numbers and more about the mentality which ends up making bad healers out of people. This wasn't an honest mistake. (You don't accidentally pentameld DH in a bunch of pieces of gear.) This was done with intent and it was apparent through the whole run of the dungeon. As the title of this thread suggests, the idea that healers need to DPS needs to go. Everything goes smoother when you have someone that's actually focused on helping maintain the people that actually bring the DPS.

The healer was just bad. Their melds have nothing to do with it

[Rilifane]

I refuse to believe that a stat that starts out at a third the value of other core stats actually brings significant value to anything.

Frankly, It's less about the numbers and more about the mentality which ends up making bad healers out of people. This wasn't an honest mistake. (You don't accidentally pentameld DH in a bunch of pieces of gear.) This was done with intent and it was apparent through the whole run of the dungeon. As the title of this thread suggests, the idea that healers need to DPS needs to go. Everything goes smoother when you have someone that's actually focused on helping maintain the people that actually bring the DPS.

You can believe what you want, there is actual math for it.
You just admitted that you have no idea how it works but blamed it anyway.

What you got is a healer making a mistake not by melding DH but by not using enough oGCDs or even GCDs to keep you alive.
And if you were synced, melds don't make any difference at all because syncing removes all materia effects.
Before you blindly blame something, at least do some research.

I repeat: you had one bad experience, one bad healer. That's it. Get over it, move on with your life and don't try to destroy a whole role even more just because you can't handle getting the occasional bad egg.
Nobody here demands tanks only have 1-2 combo so they can focus on mitigation but I guarantee that everyone had plenty of bad experiences with tanks, causing them to die/ wipe/ waste a lot of time. It's not the fault of a proper dps rotation that some tanks don't mitigate, it's because the player is bad and has a lot of room for improvement.

[ForteNightshade]

I refuse to believe that a stat that starts out at a third the value of other core stats actually brings significant value to anything.

Frankly, It's less about the numbers and more about the mentality which ends up making bad healers out of people. This wasn't an honest mistake. (You don't accidentally pentameld DH in a bunch of pieces of gear.) This was done with intent and it was apparent through the whole run of the dungeon. As the title of this thread suggests, the idea that healers need to DPS needs to go. Everything goes smoother when you have someone that's actually focused on helping maintain the people that actually bring the DPS.

The whole reason Direct Hit has higher DPS value is because healers and tanks have zero access to it otherwise. While the remaining stats are subject to diminishing returns save Critical Hit due to its lopsided scaling.

With that said, the difference is minuscule. Hence why tanks don't bother melding Tenacity nor does it make a significant difference if healers opt for Determine over Direct Hit. To highlight this even further, the World First racers clear the initial two Savage falls in gear 10 whole ilvls below the actually min requirement. That's a far greater loss of stats—in particular, main stats—than Direct Hit could ever hope to compete against. In any content below Savage, it's entirely a non-issue. Most players don't even bother to meld whatsoever. If someone dies due to lackluster healing, it's simply a mistimed oGCD or a healer simply not healing to begin with. Direct Hit has absolutely nothing to do with it.

[Saefinn]

I refuse to believe that a stat that starts out at a third the value of other core stats actually brings significant value to anything.

Frankly, It's less about the numbers and more about the mentality which ends up making bad healers out of people. This wasn't an honest mistake. (You don't accidentally pentameld DH in a bunch of pieces of gear.) This was done with intent and it was apparent through the whole run of the dungeon. As the title of this thread suggests, the idea that healers need to DPS needs to go. Everything goes smoother when you have someone that's actually focused on helping maintain the people that actually bring the DPS.

You had a healer that was doing things wrong, sure. There can be a plethora of reasons why, but if at the end of the day they couldn't keep people's health above 50% when there were raid wides that took more than 50% of their health then maybe it wasn't a simple mistake, especially if this was persistent. I sincerely doubt their melding choice affected it. But my thought on it is, so what? It's the dice you roll when you use Duty Finder or PUG, players who struggle to play well is nothing new to the MMORPG genre or exclusive to healing.

In my experience there's also a lot of tanks and DPS who don't do very well either and often or not I pick up their slack. I've never once thought "they need to dumb down elements of their jobs to make it easy", because if we start doing that, it's just a recipe for blandless...I say that, the devs have already started doing that. But I've never asked for any DPS jobs to be watered down so they can meet DPS checks and do mechanics better, nor have I have ask tanks to be watered down to make survival easier, DPS easier or holding aggro easier (but they did it anyway). Why? Because it'd make for a bland gameplay experience. The complaint if anything is the player is getting it wrong. I think a fun game where some people get it wrong is better than a bland game where everybody gets it right.

With the player getting stuff wrong, there's of course room for acceptance, people can get things wrong, they can make mistakes, they can be inexperienced, they can have the wrong attitude, they can be misinformed, they can have a certain handicap affecting them and so on. You're not always going to get it and it's the luck of the draw.

To my mind a better way of mitigating that is providing better tools for learning. Back when I started the natural progression of levelling and progressing through story sufficed, because from level 1 to 50, it was a steady progression of difficulty and a gradual acquisition of abilities to get used to and content that steadily increased in difficulty and threw in DPS, healer and tank checks. Each of the 3 primals themselves had their own separate checks, with Ifrit having a DPS check, Titan having a healer check and Garuda having a tank check, this much was also true of the Hard Modes. I've been around long enough to remember Tanks LBing on Garuda NM and Mage LB3 being almost essential to Ifrit HM. Nowadays all that content is a joke and doesn't provide that benefit and you'll have people get one job to 90 and then maybe jump potion the next or pick up something like SGE at level 70.

However, I think something like a "Hall of the Apprentice" and a "Training Journal" as an extension of the "Hall of the Novice" is something that could help. Attach a reward at the end too for incentive. The "Hall of the Apprentice" could be where people get more intermediate and advanced lessons on their role and it could the place where healers can learn to prioritise healing over DPS and it could be where the devs promote the idea that DPS is secondary and optional but there if it's needed. It could also help with basic rotations for DPS and sustaining uptime during mechanics and it could also help with tanks managing their cooldowns and ensuring they sustain aggro on all enemies including new ones that show. The "Training Journal" would be a list of dungeons & trials (in a certain order) they can complete where they might be useful practice for certain things covered by Hall of the Apprentice. And if anything, it'd be more rewarding.

[Liam_Harper]

Bumping determination means heals and nukes are stronger and you ultimately get to heal for more with fewer casts and DPS til your heart's content.

False. Det is literally only a few percent difference. It will save no GCD casts.

That one run in 1000 where a player survived a raidwide with double digit health after you healed them is where Det helped. DH would help in that one run in 1000 where you wiped at sub 1%. Pick whichever helps you sleep at night, it's irrelevant.