The idea that we need to DPS must go.

[ForteNightshade]

Well all they did was rip the heart and soul out of AST by reducing the card effects to just one, thereby eliminating what made the job interesting to play and stand out from other healers. Also basically nuked the job from orbit lore wise. Not a coincidence that when they did that AST basically died in playerbase and the obvious thing happened: the only way to bring that desiccated corpse back was to make it mathematically superior to all other options.

Oh well, Sage is fun so I am playing sage instead of the job that got me into healing because I found WHM boring and I did not mesh well with SCH.

Meanwhile, when Xeno asked about Living Dead way back at the Fanfest leading up to Shadowbringers, Yoshida specifically said they don't want to change it because Living Dead is apart of Dark Knight's identity. Funny how that same logic didn't seem to apply with Astro's cards. Hell, the job quest still even mentions an ability they've since deleted (I believe Time Dilation).

It's downright laughable nowadays when they try using the lore excuse after butchering Astro's.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

If people really want to DPS that bad, play a proper DPS class. Healers are there to heal, not try to milk a stat that's already so low and do next to nothing helpful for the group.

People of all varying skill level make mistake from time to time. What matters is their history & how ‘consistently’ it happens. If a healer actually let their party die from lack of healing fairly often then they definitely should hold their horses & play in more reserved manner until they get used to the flow. And no, I’m not counting healing people who collects vuln stacks like cookies. Mistakes happens yes but there’s a point where it becomes obvious whether it’s worthy to upkeep these individuals or not.

None of us were there to witness what actually happened in your run so I can only take it with grain of salt; bad runs happens from time to time. It’s nothing new. I’d wager the mistake from their side was to blow most, if not all of their instants too early & was too late to hardcast any heals to prevent deaths.

Not sure what you meant by ‘stat’, but I’ll bite.

Unlike in many other MMO, XIV healers dps actually makes up a respectable portion of party’s overall damage, it’s definitely not “next to nothing”. In dailies when I run with a friend who regularly opens up the can of worms, I’d learn that as a healer I would often dish out around the same, and sometimes even outdamaging the DPSes in the party. A decent DPS should be outdamaging me and be about 30% higher or more (even better!). Take my damage away in these scenarios then everything will be a slog to clear.

[Doragan]

I just ran into yet another example that couldn't keep all group members over 50% in a simple dungeon, so when we got double room wides on a boss, only the tank was left.

What about it? It's ok to do mistakes in a dungeon, and more importantly, it's ok to wipe there. It's a dungeon, no one cares. There's no stakes at play there.

Healers are there to heal, not try to milk a stat that's already so low and do next to nothing helpful for the group

Healer AoE DPS is ridiculously good. In levelling dungeons, there's times you can even outDPS DPS jobs. Holy can stun enemies until they hit the floor. You have so many oGCDs to get everyone to max HP.
The incoming damage in this game is ridiculously small. However, you need healer DPS whenever there's any kind of DPS check in harder content (where your kit is stretched).
Let's try to do get to p4s p2 without healer DPS. Even adds in p3s. I'm sure not passing 50% hard enrages would be "helpful" to the group.

[New_Game_Plus]

Damn thought I time traveled back to SB era with this post.

[Deveryn]

Not sure what you meant by ‘stat’, but I’ll bite.

DH. Direct Hit Rate. The stat healers and tanks lack. Why are healers melding for a stat that starts off as low as it does and ultimately making it harder for themselves to keep a group running through basic mechanics? There's no practical reason melding this, even in harder content. Bumping determination means heals and nukes are stronger and you ultimately get to heal for more with fewer casts and DPS til your heart's content.

[Sebazy]

DH. Direct Hit Rate. The stat healers and tanks lack. Why are healers melding for a stat that starts off as low as it does and ultimately making it harder for themselves to keep a group running through basic mechanics? There's no practical reason melding this, even in harder content. Bumping determination means heals and nukes are stronger and you ultimately get to heal for more with fewer casts and DPS til your heart's content.

Why not? Sub stats have a minuscule effect on healers in the grand scheme of things. We could meld full tenacity for all it’s worth and it’d still only register as a small percentage on our logs

[Rilifane]

DH. Direct Hit Rate. The stat healers and tanks lack. Why are healers melding for a stat that starts off as low as it does and ultimately making it harder for themselves to keep a group running through basic mechanics? There's no practical reason melding this, even in harder content. Bumping determination means heals and nukes are stronger and you ultimately get to heal for more with fewer casts and DPS til your heart's content.

Did you actually research how miniscule the heal gain from Det over DH hit is?
It's low enough that it doesn't even warrant melding Det over DH in the most difficult endgame content or first week. The difference between full DH and full Det meld is in the range of single digit %. If you die to an aoe in casual content that is designed to put as little pressure on healers as possible, it has absolutely nothing to do with melds. Nothing.
And there is a very practical reason to meld DH over Det: more healer dps. 4% more heal will never make the difference between having to heal twice vs just once. Det and DH are close than ever in terms of dps gain but DH is still slightly ahead and the additional heal from Det is pitiful.

All it means is that this person made a mistake and didn't use enough oGCD to heal the damage.
People make mistakes. If I would go to the forum and complain everytime someone made a mistake that cost me a little bit of time in a dungeon of all things, then I'd have to demand that dps only have a single button that does high single target damage with falloff so it's also their aoe button, tanks wouldn't have stances and only a 1-2 combo and nothing else so they can "focus on mitigation", any form of support from dps would automatically apply.
Someone made a mistake and you died.
So what?
This happened countless times to every single person here for various reasons: tank not having stance, tank not using mitigation, tank not using aoe, dps not using aoe, dps standing in the bad, dps standing in Narnia, dps with ress not ressing, co heal not healing, co heal not ressing ...
You had one bad experience. As far as arguments against healers melding DH or dpsing in general go, that's pitiful. And I have yet to see a good argument against either.

[Deveryn]

What about it? It's ok to do mistakes in a dungeon, and more importantly, it's ok to wipe there. It's a dungeon, no one cares. There's no stakes at play there.



Healer AoE DPS is ridiculously good. In levelling dungeons, there's times you can even outDPS DPS jobs. Holy can stun enemies until they hit the floor. You have so many oGCDs to get everyone to max HP.
The incoming damage in this game is ridiculously small. However, you need healer DPS whenever there's any kind of DPS check in harder content (where your kit is stretched).
Let's try to do get to p4s p2 without healer DPS. Even adds in p3s. I'm sure not passing 50% hard enrages would be "helpful" to the group.

Holy is only effective for 3 casts, then your tank is stuck not being able to stun certain actions. If you're failing a DPS check in EX / Savage, the problem is definitely not solved by forsaking a prime stat like Det in order to pentameld DH. Did you ever consider the fact that Healer nukes are as strong as they are because they have to heal as well? It's clearly in there as a supplement and a way to get through solo content.

[Deveryn]

Did you actually research how miniscule the heal gain from Det over DH hit is?
It's low enough that it doesn't even warrant melding Det over DH in the most difficult endgame content or first week. The difference between full DH and full Det meld is in the range of single digit %. If you die to an aoe in casual content that is designed to put as little pressure on healers as possible, it has absolutely nothing to do with melds. Nothing.
And there is a very practical reason to meld DH over Det: more healer dps. 4% more heal will never make the difference between having to heal twice vs just once. Det and DH are close than ever in terms of dps gain but DH is still slightly ahead and the additional heal from Det is pitiful.

All it means is that this person made a mistake and didn't use enough oGCD to heal the damage.
People make mistakes. If I would go to the forum and complain everytime someone made a mistake that cost me a little bit of time in a dungeon of all things, then I'd have to demand that dps only have a single button that does high single target damage with falloff so it's also their aoe button, tanks wouldn't have stances and only a 1-2 combo and nothing else so they can "focus on mitigation", any form of support from dps would automatically apply.
Someone made a mistake and you died.
So what?
This happened countless times to every single person here for various reasons: tank not having stance, tank not using mitigation, tank not using aoe, dps not using aoe, dps standing in the bad, dps standing in Narnia, dps with ress not ressing, co heal not healing, co heal not ressing ...
You had one bad experience. As far as arguments against healers melding DH or dpsing in general go, that's pitiful. And I have yet to see a good argument against either.

I refuse to believe that a stat that starts out at a third the value of other core stats actually brings significant value to anything.

Frankly, It's less about the numbers and more about the mentality which ends up making bad healers out of people. This wasn't an honest mistake. (You don't accidentally pentameld DH in a bunch of pieces of gear.) This was done with intent and it was apparent through the whole run of the dungeon. As the title of this thread suggests, the idea that healers need to DPS needs to go. Everything goes smoother when you have someone that's actually focused on helping maintain the people that actually bring the DPS.

[Liam_Harper]

Bumping determination means heals and nukes are stronger and you ultimately get to heal for more with fewer casts and DPS til your heart's content.

False. Det is literally only a few percent difference. It will save no GCD casts.

That one run in 1000 where a player survived a raidwide with double digit health after you healed them is where Det helped. DH would help in that one run in 1000 where you wiped at sub 1%. Pick whichever helps you sleep at night, it's irrelevant.