Dark Knight Megathread

[RyuDragnier]

At that point why not just delete the job and let warrior use swords as well as axes? What is the point of multiple jobs when they all play the same?

I highly doubt the changes would be reversed were this to happen as well.

They've already turned DRK into WAR lite. At this point DRK needs a massive rework, but since they don't like doing those mid expansion, we're going to need something to shore up its glaring weaknesses temporarily.

[Rhais]

They've already turned DRK into WAR lite. At this point DRK needs a massive rework, but since they don't like doing those mid expansion, we're going to need something to shore up its glaring weaknesses temporarily.

It's glaring weakness is uninspired warrior-lite mechanics and lacking any unique compelling gameplay. How will further solidifying that help the job?

[Archwizard]

It's glaring weakness is uninspired warrior-lite mechanics and lacking any unique compelling gameplay. How will further solidifying that help the job?

What Ryu means is "glaring weaknesses" that cripple its performance, not appeal or playstyle; those would have to be addressed with a complete rework, which won't happen mid-expansion.

In the meantime the most we can expect is bandaids and very light reworking of specific mechanics that prove ineffective, such as LD, Dark Mind, LD, Oblation, the lack of any sustainability for trash pulls, and LD.

[Shurrikhan]

What Ryu means is "glaring weaknesses" that cripple its performance, not appeal or playstyle; those would have to be addressed with a complete rework.

In the meantime the most we can expect is bandaids and very light reworking of specific mechanics that prove ineffective, such as LD, Dark Mind, LD, Oblation, the lack of any sustainability for trash pulls, and LD.

Sure, but that doesn't require us to copy Warrior.

By just generalizing our 60s defensive, giving a small bit of added flexibility to, say, C&S/AD, and just having the EW additions give some actual effect on DRK's sustain [Oblation actually having an impact and Salt and Darkness giving some actual healing in the vein of Divine Magic Mastery II and Enhance Equilibrium], we can patch all major holes without further turning DRK into a WAR-clone.

Straightforward changes, with no need for more WAR-lite:

1. Dark Mind now reduces damage taken by 15% and magic damage by a further 10%. (Why 15|25% instead of 10|20% physical|magic mitigation? Because magic damage is far less common and DM has lower uptime than Camo anyways.)
   
   
2. Oblation now does 10% mitigation for 8 seconds, with a further 10% mitigation for the first 4 seconds. (20% for 4, 10% for 4 more.) Recast time reduced to 40 seconds.
   
   
3. Salt and Darkness now also heals for damage dealt (500 for the first, 250 for all subsequent targets).
   
   
4. Carve and Spit and Abyssal Drain cooldowns reduced to 40 seconds and given a second charge (put 2 into each raid 120s raid window; 1 between), with free ppm kept as before. For instance, have them each cost 3000 MP instead of granting 600 MP; to match C&S's 510 ppm, C&S would then have to deal 800 potency (340 free potency per cast, down 2/3s of 510). Abyssal Drain, which already needed a slight buff regardless, could deal 270p (keeping its current power would place it at 260; this buff simply lets it faintly push ahead at 3 targets) and heal for damage dealt (->270n potency). Additionally, let C&S heal for half its damage dealt (->400 potency).

   EDIT: Per Archwizard's reminder -- Yes, C&S and AD would benefit from Dark Arts.

   With the two above changes alone, without borrowing from others' designs, DRK would already heal for ~933 additional potency per minute in ST and drastically more in AoE.
   
   
5. Living Dead revised just slightly. There's a decent bit of coding doubtless involved, but Living Dead is certainly by now owed at least that much effort.

Living Dead
Ability - 300s recast
Grants the effect of Living Dead, preventing most attacks from decreasing your HP below 1 and causing you to heal for 50% of your damage dealt. The first time Living Dead prevents your death, its duration is refreshed but you will be inflicted with Borrowed Time.
Living Dead Duration: 10s
Borrowed Time: Generates a barrier equal to 100% of your HP which absorbs incoming healing. Incoming healing reduces this barrier by the amount it would have healed. This effect fades after 20 seconds.

• As before, not getting enough healing will leave you vulnerable; but, it can no longer outright kill you. The added overall healing requirement (needing to heal for almost 200% of the DRK's HP to top it back off) is mostly made up for by the life-steal. Barriers can still be attached to the DRK even when the initial healing does not get through to the DRK's HP.

[Archwizard]

Sure, but that doesn't require us to copy Warrior.

Never said it did, and I absolutely agree that it shouldn't.

Living Dead revised just slightly. There's a decent bit of coding doubtless involved, but Living Dead is certainly by now owed at least that much effort.

Living Dead
Ability - 300s recast
Grants the effect of Living Dead, preventing most attacks from decreasing your HP below 1 and causing you to heal for 50% of your damage dealt. The first time Living Dead prevents your death, its duration is refreshed but you will be inflicted with Borrowed Time.
Living Dead Duration: 10s
Borrowed Time: Generates a barrier equal to 100% of your HP which absorbs incoming healing. Incoming healing reduces this barrier by the amount it would have healed. This effect fades after 20 seconds.

• As before, not getting enough healing will leave you vulnerable; but, it can no longer outright kill you. The added overall healing requirement (needing to heal for almost 200% of the DRK's HP to top it back off) is mostly made up for by the life-steal. Barriers can still be attached to the DRK even when the initial healing does not get through to the DRK's HP.

This is probably the most effective way to revise LD to have the same approximate limitations, without massively penalizing healers who Bene too early or who cannot overcome the tank's HP limit in time.
My only gripe is that Borrowed Time should probably be limited to 10 sec, since if any of it remains after 10 sec the tank is stuck at 1 HP anyway with no immunity.

[Shurrikhan]

This is probably the most effective way to revise LD to have the same approximate limitations, without massively penalizing healers who Bene too early or who cannot overcome the tank's HP limit in time.
My only gripe is that Borrowed Time should probably be limited to 10 sec, since if any of it remains after 10 sec the tank is stuck at 1 HP anyway with no immunity.

That would remove most of the reason to even deal with the mechanic, though, wouldn't it? Especially in situations where damage would only be hitting one of the tanks at a time and raid damage isn't timed just perfectly to finish the DRK off (though, that would make for an interesting PLD synergy via Cover, at least).


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EDIT:
(Sorry; ran out of daily posts.)

Even if the barrier lasted the full 10 sec, you would be guaranteed to come out of the immunity period with only 1 HP, unlike even WAR and GNB's immunes where you can at least heal partway during that period.

Yes, which allows for breaking that barrier to be worthwhile, instead of just tagging out and outlasting it or using TBN+Oblation (20% mitigation for the first 4 seconds in this example, pushing you to an effective eHP of 31% health for that moment) to eat a further auto as necessary. If DRK itself didn't hold that capacity as to nullify that risk for a few seconds, I'd agree. But it does, and so for healing that barrier not just to be a trap, it must outlast the death-preventing effect. At that point, the more it exceeds LD's duration, the less normalized it will be to cheese the barrier, which will ultimately make LD more costly than it would otherwise, yes, but also less likely to go horribly awry and lead to the DRK's death. If it came down to it, I would rather reduce the barrier to 50% HP or have it instead fade over 30 seconds (so that it's down to at most 67% left, naturally, by the end of LD) than make useless any incomplete progress towards depleting it.

Nothing about the way you've reworked LD itself works to alleviate the burden it has on healers, only mildly reduce the penalty for having spent all of your resources and CDs before LD was popped.
Otherwise it relies on the DRK having... not spent all of its resources and CDs before using LD as a last resort like most tank immunes.

Such was the point, no? To not fundamentally change the ability outside of causing it to no longer damn near guarantee the DRK's death?

The amount to be healed is now clearly marked and failure leaves the DRK vulnerable, not dead; that's all. It's still a resource hog (though it certainly benefits from DRK's being able to heal for half its damage dealt over that period) because I'd not intended to change that in a minimal adjustment.

[Archwizard]

That would remove most of the reason to even deal with the mechanic, though, would it? Especially in situations where damage would only be hitting one of the tanks at a time and raid damage isn't timed just perfectly to finish the DRK off (though, that would make for an interesting PLD synergy via Cover, at least).

That would be the absolute ideal scenario though, relying both on luck and perfect timing.

As you have it written now, you have exactly the same pressure in place for healers -- heal 100% of the tank's HP in under 10 sec, or highly risk them dying the second the timer runs out; the extra 10 sec is theoretical. The key difference is the use of "highly risk" there, substituting for "guarantee" with existing LD, but functionally they would be the same for something like a dungeon pull with only one healer to help you.
Even if the barrier lasted the full 10 sec due to insufficient healing, you would be guaranteed to come out of the immunity period with only 1 HP (and even if you manage to crack the barrier in the last couple seconds before the immunity ends, the DRK's HP is still cripplingly low), unlike even WAR and GNB's immunes where you can at least heal partway during that period and are likely to come out of it with something. Having that period extend even past the point LD provides a benefit is overkill.

Nothing about the way you've reworked LD itself works to alleviate the burden it has on healers, only mildly reduce the penalty for having spent all of your resources and CDs before LD was popped.
Otherwise it relies on the DRK having... not spent all of its resources and CDs before using LD as a last resort like most tank immunes, without an on-demand that can shore up its main flaws.

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EDIT:

Such was the point, no? To not fundamentally change the ability outside of causing it to no longer damn near guarantee the DRK's death?

The amount to be healed is now clearly marked and failure leaves the DRK vulnerable, not dead; that's all. It's still a resource hog (though it certainly benefits from DRK's being able to heal for half its damage dealt over that period) because I'd not intended to change that in a minimal adjustment.

I guess so, through the lens of bare minimalism. I'm just thinking of the times I've seen Walking Dead activate in dungeons and just resigned myself to the DRK's death, and imagining if it'd have the same result. I can't help but wonder if this solution would feel worse to use as someone without Bene; even with the revision, I wouldn't get the consolation that if I'd somehow succeeded as SGE or some other, the DRK would have some HP in the tank, since all of the HP it absorbed is just... gone.

Still, fingers crossed that any update to LD doesn't occur in a vacuum. More sustain for the DRK would mean lower odds of (and marginally less pain from) seeing LD at all, right?

I suppose it just creates a greater appreciation for how terrible LD feels as a tank immune, being the most oppressive to the healers (not least because of how its design may or may not impact DRK's lackluster self-healing). Even with adjustments to address its most glaring concerns to the letter, we can still spot blistering flaws that make it continue to stand out as the worst ability in its class, as the only one built with an actual penalty.
Bonus points for how WAR and GNB's on-demand tools synergize with their own immune skills, especially after 82.

Long and short of what I'm saying is, personally, trying to work around what we have is not the solution I would favor if the alternative was going back to the drawing board with LD entirely... and I'm sure I'm far from alone in that.

[ThorneDynasty]

I'm also looking at DRK as a whole. The devs clearly don't know what they want this job to be, and at this point we may as well expect homogenization, as they'd rather have a weaker warrior rather than a unique tank. As you can tell, I'm incredibly frustrated at this point, and may be reaching my limit on this nonsense with the devs treating DRK like crap. It may objectively be the worst job in the game right now.

Well, that's not entirely true. They've had some really great ideas for DRK in the past. So great in fact they felt they were wasted on DRK.

[Malthir]

Dev clearly want Drk to be the high DPS tank, and that inherently comes with issues.

They can't boost our DPS anymore, because for progression you "might" take a Warrior MT, but you will certainly take Drk OT while you are learning mechs, then immediately swap them out for 2 Drks to increase clear speed. If we went even higher in DPS this would be worse.
At the same time they cannot increase our mitigation too much as the same issue occurs, our DPS outstrips all other tanks by so much that you just wouldn't take any other tank.

Functionally we aren't broken, we're just not fun, it sucks to play. Yeah living dead is terrible to the point of broken but it's always sucked that's nothing new.
Yes white damage is higher against us than any of the other tanks but If you execute your rotation properly you should be able to balance your defensive cooldowns to mitigate damage in-between TBN presses. Outside of that use our higher DPS to clear the pack faster, if you kill 3 seconds faster that's 3 seconds worth of damage you didn't take. Unless the healer just refuses to heal you wont die just pulling in dungeons, but then at that point any tank other than current warrior dies too. Bosses are easy as anything, their white damage is ignorable and we have the best boss mit in the game, even if it is boring.

There is no point in dev patching us. The only thing we can ask for, is a rework, make us fun to play again. Currently there's nothing broken we are working as intended

Also bring back power slash it was the coolest animation we had and I'm still pissed it was taken away.

[Kalaam]

Power Slash loops in itself pretty well too, it would be a great spammable. Better than bloodspiller imo