Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

[tearagion]

You mean the same Lucky Bancho survey that stated that caster popularity hasn't changed much? Maybe the same statistic that shows proportionally fewer SMNs with a high iLVL weapon compared to the previous one? This is ignoring the inevitable falloff from novelty wearing off, and ignoring the flaws of the Lucky Bancho census.

Ineptitude was a needlessly rude word, I apologize. I mean to attack the effort you put into fixing any problem, which was presumably zero from your own stated results.

I don't care what you consider. The lack of flexibility and interacting mechanics with the simplicity of every phase demonstrate a lower level of completion compared to SB RDM. I'm not going to create a new thread for new job speculation, I'm going to repeatedly outline my grievances and let the developers interpret it as they will. You don't come into the decision making process in any part, though you could if you were to cobble together an actual argument ever.

[aveyond-dreams]

Again, these aren't the optics you want to be aiming for, nor is the dissatisfaction of "complexity!" lovers going to have any meaningful impact seeing as how the job veered directly away from catering to them. Continue to act in your present way as long as you want, I will continue to support job design that doesn't cause me physical strain and that I find more fun than micromanagement: the job. That's all old SMN was and I am sorry that the majority of players sided against such a design and so too did the devs in the end.

The most effective solution to your problem has already been presented to you, which is to make an appropriate support thread. However seeing as the complexity crowd struggles with optics and gaining sympathy to this degree I question whether 7.0 will even have such a caster class at all. I cannot find a reason as to why I should add a niche "complex!" job that draws inspiration from a design that was removed from the game as opposed to something new and fresh, with decent flow to it like Reaper.

You were not the target population this rework was aiming for. This was made clear to all from its announcement. You may be catered to in new job additions, but doing things the "complex!" way for Summoner didn't work out, and if it was my task to scan for ideas of what players wanted in future additions and found every other post with the present tone, I think I'd find myself making a physical ranged job or another tank as opposed to Necromancer, Time Mage, Arithmetician, and so on.

[tearagion]

Physical strain: your fault. Dissatisfaction: valid. Optics: irrelevant. Micromanagement: fun.

I don't want your solution, stop trying to shoo people away. It's entirely not your place and is just annoying. Same goes for your suggestions.

[IruruCece]

Again, these aren't the optics you want to be aiming for

Hilariously, you believe that the "optics" of "I got what I want and everyone else can move on and stop complaining" is what you think all "discussion" surrounding SMN, or any other job for that matter, is what we should be aiming for.

[aveyond-dreams]

Hilariously, you believe that the "optics" of "I got what I want and everyone else can move on and stop complaining" is what you think all "discussion" surrounding SMN, or any other job for that matter, is what we should be aiming for.

I've expressed multiple times that I would like to see more summons or summon-themed abilities added. I rolled my eyes when I found out that we were still stuck with Ifrit/Garuda/Titan after 8 years but I decided to give things a try once I also learned that the gameplay loop had changed completely and was made more accessible (because again, jobs should not exclude based off "elite" status). This is quite different from those who'd rather lace their posts with all manner of derogatory terms and insults that do little to further their own cause.

There are reasonable measures that should be taken to improve the job further, but adding in what most people considered to be irrelevant busywork (poison magic dots, Dreadwyrm Trance and everything that was stacked directly on top of it) is not an appropriate solution. Those mechanics are more reminiscent of poison mages like WoW's Warlock or something as convoluted as Arithmetician, neither of which is a good fit for Summoner. There are some minor annoyances relating to Carbuncle that can also hopefully be addressed, and I would like for lower level abilities to be more visually distinct. I would also like to see every job in the game get later abilities earlier, Summoner included. For future job evolution, again, Red Mage is the level most are happy with, so that's probably what to aim for.

The choice of how old SMN fans choose to move forward is not mine to make, but continuing their present course of action seems ineffective. It's like as if the male Viera crowd demanded to see Hrothgar removed after it was already made, or if deep dungeon fans wanted Bozja to be reworked completely after not getting a deep dungeon last expansion. Things just don't work like that. Eventually they were listened to and saw their requests manifest in ways they were largely happy with, and the same could happen for old SMN fans who want a new class to play.

[IruruCece]

I've expressed multiple times that I would like to see more summons or summon-themed abilities added.

You've also expressed multiple times that anyone who doesn't like this remake can suck it and/or move on, so in short your posts are a land of contrasts and BS.

[aveyond-dreams]

Accepting job changes as they come especially when it is made clear that the overall foundation of a job has changed is the healthier way to go about things as opposed to continuing to complain endlessly about them. This is not a situation with male Viera numbers backing it, they are not going to walk things back at this point. A lot of the jobs I used to play have changed in unexpected ways and when I was unsatisfied with that I just played something else, seeing as how easy it is to switch things up and the variety of options there are.

The result is I can manuver my way through updates without having a negative all-or-nothing mindset hanging over my head. The moment this crowd gets their Necromancer or Time Mage they will forget all about Summoner. Their energies are not being spent effectively and so long as they choose to carry on this way I choose to provide a counter and opposition to their ideas.

The point I try to make is why they completely removed a job which a subset of the players liked (including me) and replaced it with a totally different class, jokingly announce the change and expect the pre ew smn to just live with it. And why should I trust them again to not do the same exact thing if I choose a new class.

For me that’s the hardest part to understand, did they really expect pre ew main smn players would like the completely different play style ? If they didn’t I would have expected a more comprehensive explanation of why it is not feasible to keep the old smn and the reasoning for completely removing the job.

Summoner was a job that was trying to be too many things at once-ultimately in choosing to go with a pure Summoner identity this meant that a lot of things had to be taken out in order to have a clean slate, which was what they decided to go with as opposed to carrying baggage from the past. Once more, pre-EW Summoners were not unified in this regard and a lot of people did indeed decide to stick with the job as it is now. The complexity and systems were taking away more fun than they were adding, and further contributing to the job's thematic crisis. Ultimately there was always going to be a losing side, though admittedly I believed they were going to continue doubling down on the complex/poison mage aspect right up until the job changes live letter.

Unfortunately you are correct in that job changes can sometimes really come completely out of the blue and that is why I highly recommend playing at least 1 other class. Even now, Summoner is not going to be the only caster I will level despite my love for its current state. When Shadowbringers took away my Astro card effects I avoided the job like the plague for almost the entirety of Shb until I decided to give it a chance again. In Stormblood I was extremely disappointed with White Mage and did not level the class at all beyond 60 in favor of then-Scholar and Astro. I suspect Bard may eventually receive a rework of its own, while Scholar and Dark Knight are...in a very unusual place.

[XmissionsX]

I truly do not get the discussion about which smn is better, the play style changed so much that the whole discussion is pointless it’s a new job.

The point I try to make is why they completely removed a job which a subset of the players liked (including me) and replaced it with a totally different class, jokingly announce the change and expect the pre ew smn to just live with it. And why should I trust them again to not do the same exact thing if I choose a new class.

For me that’s the hardest part to understand, did they really expect pre ew main smn players would like the completely different play style ? If they didn’t I would have expected a more comprehensive explanation of why it is not feasible to keep the old smn and the reasoning for completely removing the job.

[Rolder50]

I do enjoy how a certain someone on this thread acts like everyone agrees with their opinion despite the good ol forum like button proving otherwise.

[aveyond-dreams]

Sorry, but if likes on Summoner videos on youtube and posts praising the rework on other social media sites do not count as true likes, then neither do forum likes on posts that are just saying how they don't like the changes or are just fishing for internet points. I did not make these rules, the "complexity!" lovers crowd did ages ago in another of their interesting posts.