Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

[Imoen]

Ya, I don't think it needs to go back. It just needs more. I am disheartened that it's so "meh" tho. I really don't think summoner should be just going down a checklist of "yup titan, yup ruda, yup ifrit) I would have preferred... simply ideas...

-More summons (6 minimum outside of Demi)
-Decision making on the "Who, What, When, Where and Why." to summon.
-Some synergies or interactions between different summons abilities.
-Having energy drain be the trigger for the summoning of the non-demi versions, which stacks would be dumped upon demi summon to avoid holding.
-Distinctions between the summons (Maybe some offering small short buffs or utility, AOE masters and others are single target masters)
-An ability that augments fester depending on the summon we are currently attuned with. (Maybe Ruda, is an aoe master, that makes fester a painflare equiv for example applying windburn at a lesser potency, or ramuh making fester a single target that can interrupt... just an example.)
-a Pepsis type of effect where we can pop and give up something up to achieve something else if a situation requires it.
-1 less summon per cycle to allow room for more meaningful choice in what is being summoned, possibly rotation of light and dark flavored summons every other cycle or every cycle gets 1 dark 1 light summon. Idk
-A much more interesting/busy demi phase.

Honestly I don't know, I'm simply throwing things at the wall here, I don't get paid for this. I wish there was more decisions to make in the "Who, what, where, when and why?" of the actual summoning process. Instead of just running down the check list and asking "Is ifrit gonna do me dirty here?" I really don't care what the identity is as far as a more support driven dps with lower dps or a big dps oriented caster with less utility. I simply wish there was a bit more going on here.

[dinnertime]

These are two contradicting statements; I replied to the first.

You are honestly grasping at straws now.

Now answer what's so varied about them when their only purpose is being filler on your rotation for being the weakest part of your kit. Oh, and why you'd use Ruin III for weaving.

[Rolder50]

Really all it needs is a little something extra to keep track of, whether that be some kind of buff, a debuff for the target, an extra oGCD or three, anything.

[MellowMink]

As someone who prefers the newer job design to the older job design, I also previously noted in this thread multiple areas where each of the newer spells technically differed, but I also mentioned other improvements that I would like to see; I’m not opposed to newer updates.

One of those things was that I felt that the level 86 elemental trait (that introduces what I feel are the most significant factors in terms of deciding elemental usage order) should be swapped around with some lower-level trait, since I’m not personally a fan of limiting those major spells and abilities to the newest content.

Another thing is that being able to cast the attack buff when you’re not in the middle of battle should be a thing again, since you can’t currently have it prepared right before a raid boss is initially pulled.

All that said, I think it’s totally fine if other people on these forums have other suggestions or even major dislikes too as long as they’re shared respectfully.

[aveyond-dreams]

And do you understand why maybe taking things to such an extreme level is unhealthy? That is absolutely not the sort of reaction ordinary people have to class changes.

These threads seem to have gone in every direction possible but its high time for some to take a deep breath and re-asses whether they're approaching things in a healthy way or not. I can only imagine the comment above was posted in defence of the "complex!" argument but it just reads as extremely negative and over-reactionary. It does nothing to sway people to that side and if anything else validates the fact that perhaps catering to them was not a good idea in the first place. Associating the "complex!" SMN fans with that was not a good idea.

In any case the mahjong livestream just confirmed that the only thing changing next week is potencies and with patch 6.1 not being till March if not April, it's time to let this go.

[tearagion]

And do you understand why maybe taking things to such an extreme level is unhealthy? That is absolutely not the sort of reaction ordinary people have to class changes.

These threads seem to have gone in every direction possible but its high time for some to take a deep breath and re-asses whether they're approaching things in a healthy way or not. I can only imagine the comment above was posted in defence of the "complex!" argument but it just reads as extremely negative and over-reactionary. It does nothing to sway people to that side and if anything else validates the fact that perhaps catering to them was not a good idea in the first place.

In any case the mahjong livestream just confirmed that the only thing changing next week is potencies and with patch 6.1 not being till March if not April, it's time to let this go.

God, please shut up. That post illustrated how tame current feedback is. What isn't healthy is what you do, trounce into every feedback thread and endlessly reply either the same recycled post, or tell everyone who is unhappy with the job to shut up, pack up, and give up. It isn't time to let anything go, SMN deserves to be so much more engaging, through skill ceiling and general job gameplay design, than it is now.

[aveyond-dreams]

Sorry but if there's going to be a crowd who is going to be perpetually unhappy and complain about the rework all day and night then I have just as much a right to tell them how and why they are wrong. You want more abilities and buttons? Be patient and maybe if the complex lovers crowd could stop acting the way they do, people would be willing to take them seriously instead of how they're regarded nowadays. A reversion back to the past simply isn't happening, so we may as well make that pretty clear here and now. Unless that crowd manages to conjure up male Viera numbers of complaints, I would not entertain that idea.

When jobs I play get changes I don't like, I cannot say I've ever acted like some have in this and other threads. At best I rolled my eyes when the changes were disappointing and moved on to do other things. After my bad experience with SMN in Shadowbringers I didn't even bother saying anything. I just left without a word, the numbers must have spoken for themselves. Again, this isn't the righteous cause some mistakenly believe it to be. Old SMN's mechanics frustrated more people than there were fans of it. Thus a rework happened to great success and acclaim. Accept it or not, stay as SMN or not, the choice is in your hands. Remember it's adults you have to convince and not teenagers on the internet with some the takes I've seen thrown around.

[tearagion]

Sorry but if there's going to be a crowd who is going to be perpetually unhappy and complain about the rework all day and night then I have just as much a right to tell them how and why they are wrong. You want more abilities and buttons? Be patient and maybe if the complex lovers crowd could stop acting the way they do, people would be willing to take them seriously instead of how they're regarded nowadays. A reversion back to the past simply isn't happening, so we may as well make that pretty clear here and now. Unless that crowd manages to conjure up male Viera numbers of complaints, I would not entertain that idea.

When jobs I play get changes I don't like, I cannot say I've ever acted like some have in this and other threads. At best I rolled my eyes when the changes were disappointing and moved on to do other things. Again, this isn't the righteous cause some mistakenly believe it to be. Old SMN's mechanics frustrated more people than there were fans of it. Thus a rework happened to great success and acclaim. Accept it or not, stay as SMN or not, the choice is in your hands. Remember its adults you have to convince and not teenagers on the internet with some the takes I've seen thrown around.

Well for one you haven't done a good job of telling anyone why they're wrong, while they've done a good job of telling you why you're wrong. Second the majority haven't been asking for a revision, and you repeating that they have been ad nauseum doesn't make the statement true. They're merely asking for SMN to actually be a fully developed job, which it isn't right now. Third, just because you roll-over and take changes, everyone else should? No thanks these changes have almost universally been for the worse and deserve the criticism. And finally, please keep the speculation to yourself unless you have some kind of properly representative and unbiased survey of rework satisfaction, and former summoner dissatisfaction.

[aveyond-dreams]

Well for one you haven't done a good job of telling anyone why they're wrong, while they've done a good job of telling you why you're wrong. Second the majority haven't been asking for a revision, and you repeating that they have been ad nauseum doesn't make the statement true. They're merely asking for SMN to actually be a fully developed job, which it isn't right now. Third, just because you roll-over and take changes, everyone else should? No thanks these changes have almost universally been for the worse and deserve the criticism. And finally, please keep the speculation to yourself unless you have some kind of properly representative and unbiased survey of rework satisfaction, and former summoner dissatisfaction.

Again, you already have the options laid out in front of you if you want to believe that Summoner isn't a full job. In my opinion it is, but I would enjoy more summons whether as demis/gem summons/etc. I've been around since ARR and seen all the major ups and downs this game has had over the years.

Trust me when I say this has got to be one of the more minor controversies.

This crowd is nowhere near big enough or carries enough weight to act out the way they are doing now, much less so if they have any plan for their "feedback" to be taken seriously. Their behaviour has largely leaned away from maturity and given how much people are enjoying the job as is nowadays, I find myself struggling to agree with anything beyond the point that an additional summon would be nice to have.

We now know there will be no substantial changes to Summoner or any other job until 6.1. Depending on what they end up doing, it'll either click with people or not. If they somehow manage to add in Ramuh, Leviathan, or more aetherflow charges that would be really great and I don't see people taking that badly. If it stays the same, I also don't foresee an overwhelmingly negative reaction. But some of the ideas about bringing back ruin stacking of all things? The reintroduction of dots and Bane after specifically stating they wanted to get rid of the poison mage stigma that the job had become attached to? That would be the thing that actually causes a significant amount of people to get angry.

Fortunately it seems they want things to be more streamlined and flow nicely as opposed to embracing further clunkiness, so I'm not too worried. If the changes don't go my way, I have other jobs to fall back on. Unlike some I've actually tried out other classes during the last 8 years given the fact that it's one of the core features of this game so I'm not concerned if one is doesn't go my way. The way I've gone about things seems to bring a lot less strife and frustration than whatever this is.

[IchiExorz]

Everyone is allowed their voice but while I enjoy aspects of the current SMN I wouldn't call it a great success.
A small minority wants old SMN back. Another small minority thinks current SMN is amazing
But most people want current SMN but with more depth to their gameplay.
At least that's the general consensus of the people I know.

And just because nothing is going to change anytime soon doesn't mean that people should stop voicing their opinion. As long as it stays respectful at least.