Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

[HappyHubris]

I never said he was objectively correct, more that I don’t like that some in here refer to players who prefer the newer job design (including popular content creators who exist outside of these forums) as “wrong” rather than having a subjective preference that they personally don’t share; whether a job is fun isn’t something that has an objectively correct answer that makes some people right and others wrong. What I was noticing in this thread were consistently negative and rude responses toward people who subjectively preferred the newer job design, but somebody simply having a preference isn’t the same as them being objectively wrong.

Many people outside of the forums prefer the newer job design while still wanting to see some further improvements, and it’s worth keeping in mind that most players don’t post on the forums; that doesn’t mean that they all prefer the newer job design of course, and it’s possible that the percentage of those people who dislike the newer design is large too, but the forum alone isn’t close to representative of the majority of monthly subscribers. Regardless, actual debate is great and should remain civil so that developers can read through it more easily, since I honestly feel that even just the appearance of harassment feels likelier to make developers who do read the forums ignore certain threads entirely.

1. FFXIV devs don't read the English forums either way, so criticizing people for negative language is just word policing and manufacturing drama.

2. It's common in language to express preferences using direct wording with implicit qualifiers. For example if I love Movie X and a reviewer is scathing to it, "They're wrong; it was awesome!" is shorthand for "My subjective impression of this work differs from that reviewers assessment, though both of our evaluations are grounded in different lived experiences and frames of reference and can simultaneously be valid."

If you think the summoner rework is pleasant, share why. Please don't criticize people for how they are expressing themselves.

[XmissionsX]

I completely realize it will not help anything as se seems to ignore this forum anyway, but would like to add that personally I am extremely disappointed with the new smn, started the old smn 9 months ago because it was a high skill ceiling high dps job and I improved my performance every day had a absolute blast with it.

To suddenly get presented this completely brain dead, low skill ceiling, low dps job. I really tried to like it and to be open minded but the difference in play style could not have been bigger, what where they thinking. did they really expect anyone who mained pre ew smn would like the brain dead boring ew smn ?

[Rolder50]

To suddenly get presented this completely brain dead, low skill ceiling, low dps job. I really tried to like it and to be open minded but the difference in play style could not have been bigger, what where they thinking. did they really expect anyone who mained pre ew smn would like the brain dead boring ew smn ?

Pretty sure they were hoping those who enjoy braindead boring classes would outnumber those with more then two braincells.

[aveyond-dreams]

Well then let’s see, we can start off with the fact that all of the busywork from the old systems was finally cut and deleted. Good riddance to dot juggling and all the things they stacked straight on top of Dreadwyrm Trance. Old SMN had one of the most boring 1-50 experiences before jumping into a weird loop where every 10 levels the rotation would churn and twist in weird ways until by the point one got to level 80, the class was a clunky mess that did a bad job of teaching a player what they should be doing and was plagued with all the failings of the previous pet system.

I gave it as fair a shot as I could have after getting it to level 80 but I decided not long afterwards that there was simply no way I would enjoy maining such a convoluted mishmash of everything but summon magic. Bahamut and Phoenix showed up far too infrequently to make dealing with the egis I had hated since day 1 of ARR worthwhile. The fact that some took pride in maiming such a “complex!” class is a mystery to me because I firmly believe that no class should be as badly designed as to drive away players in the droves that it did. If you want added difficulty to your gameplay, just do harder fights. It’s what I do anyway. I do not believe that difficulty should come from something like a class’s actions or control scheme.

Summoner was an outlier in this regard as I soon discovered when I got almost every other job to max on my main, and proceeded to use mostly Black Mage/Red Mage/Dancer/Gunbreaker thereafter. These are classes that for the most part flow well and do not suffer from bad gameplay mechanics or a seemingly perpetual thematic crisis. They did not hurt my hands to play nor did they disrespect their source inspiration the way that Summoner did.

We also have to once again dispel the myth that all “SMN mains” are unhappy with this rework. SMN mains have never been a unified group under any version of the job in FFXIV because trying to cater to one group who wanted to be actual Final Fantasy Summoners, one group who wanted to be poison mages, and another group that wanted to be “elite” was never going to work out. Again, classes should not be “elite” at the cost of alienating everyone else who might be interested in it because of things like old SMN’s messy gameplay. Catering to that crowd caused a lot of selective pressure and mistakenly created a group who was deriving pleasure from the job for all the wrong reasons while everyone else was running for the hills. The only mistake was letting this carry on for as long as it did. SMN should have been a true Summoner from the start, as opposed to now-but I choose to forgive and forget the past. A lot of old SMN mains who wanted to be a Summoner from day 1 like I did could not be happier, we just wish there were more summons or similarly themed abilities.

Now that we have a fresh start to Summoner, as with most new jobs, things are pretty straightforward. This is similar to how Red Mage started off in Stormblood and went on to evolve quite nicely over time in Shadowbringers and Endwalker. Given how Red Mage is still decently popular and is admittedly most people’s happy place, Summoner will likely evolve in a similar direction. As it stands now SMN>RDM on NA and EU and RDM>SMN on JP. It is extremely common to find double Summoners in 8-mans/24-mans and I think to date the most common dungeon group composition I’ve gotten is the classic Sage/Reaper/Summoner as I’ve begun working on my tanks. My prediction seems to have been largely correct, that for every old SMN fan who left that 10 more took their place.

[Lilyth]

Snip

TL;DR: "I did not understand how old SMN played, therefore I hate it"

"I also like to claim on every post how the majority of people side with my own interpretation, even though I have no evidence to support that other than my dungeon and normal raid runs."

"So you all can stop giving feedback now."

[IruruCece]

TL;DR: "I did not understand how old SMN played, therefore I hate it"

"I also like to claim on every post how the majority of people side with my own interpretation, even though I have no evidence to support that other than my dungeon and normal raid runs."

"So you all can stop giving feedback now."

They also seem to have this fixation on "elite" players for the previous version of the job, as though anyone who played it competently and enjoyed the job before now were somehow excluding others in some way. This is likely why they've had a tendency to crow about how much better the job is now that those "elite" players are unhappy about it.

Mind you, "elite" smn mains are just people who took the time to learn the job as it was and enjoyed what it offered. They aren't actually naturally better players or people, but for literally any of their posts to work, you have to agree to the premise that not only was the old job bad, players who enjoyed the old job were an adversary of some sort.

[tearagion]

.

Traded most boring 1-50 experience for the most boring 1-90 experience, big W.

I gave it a fair shot at 90 and it's the most vapid and boring job in the game. I want added difficulty in my job and the fights, which was why I took SMN to Ultimates. Guess I'll have to beg my static's BLM to let me play the job sometimes.

Sounds like a personal problem.

You can't dispel a myth with speculation. Also it's irrelevant, this job doesn't need to be a snooze-inducing ruinspam with particle effects sprinkled all over in an attempt to pull wool over eyes in order to properly represent a SMN according to your weird interpretation of the series. They could have shown any respect at all for the virtues of previous versions, but they didn't.

This "fresh start" sucks, I want a new one. Popularity =/= well designed, and is but a single metric for success of a rework.

[aveyond-dreams]

If a lot of people are playing the job in previously unseen numbers, then maybe just maybe they finally did something right with the job's design after 8 years of running around in circles trying to please different crowds at the same time. The time has come to take these discussions and move them over to jobs you'd like to see added in the future instead of continuing to complain about a job that is universally agreed to have changed for the better.

Old SMN's "complexity!" came at too high a price. This wasn't a "personal" problem if it was as widespread as it was. Reworks do not happen because some people don't get a job, they happen when huge swathes of people are turned off from one. Those of us who wanted to be Summoners after 8 years have finally been divorced from the other crowd. I am sorry that for the past 8 years they allowed for the state of affairs to progress to the point it did, but there is nothing more to be done about it. The job will evolve in more approachable ways with less bugs/bad mechanics as opposed to needless busywork, which is the opposite of what Summoner should represent.

As for the low level experience, there isn't a single class that doesn't suffer from the same when synced down, but that is a problem with the game's scale being stretched out over 90 levels as opposed to the past.

[tearagion]

Source? I know you won't bring a reliable one because SE doesn't share such metrics. Unless you're a SE employee please stop referencing a hypothetical playerbase. No time has come to stop expressing disappointment with a rework that is still less than 2 months old.

The personal problem was ineptitude and hurt hands. Pressing different keys is not a risk factor for any joint pain, you should adjust your posture, keybinds, or ergonomics before making such a complaint, especially when the most common, RSI, would in theory be more agitated by today's 1 and 2 spam if only marginally due to the more repetitive nature. Not a doctor though I could be wrong.

They said why the rework happened and none of the reasons listed were it "turning people away". Stop speculating and/or making things up please.

All classes suffer from over-simplicity and incompleteness when synced, and SMN suffers from over-simplicity and incompleteness in current content.

[aveyond-dreams]

The latest luckybancho census is there for all to see, and my experience with roulettes and their makeup is also widely shared. Attacking people's competence or dismissing the overwhelmingly shared experience feeling of physically strained when playing the job does nothing to further the cause of gaining sympathy for old SMN fans or complex! jobs. People disliked the job in greater numbers than it was liked, they went on to play other jobs, now that the rework happened the job is beating Red Mage in 2/3 major regions. Regardless both of the most played and beloved casters nowadays are pretty straightforward and designed well.

I do not consider current Summoner more incomplete than Red Mage was in Stormblood's current content when it released. Both jobs are great fun and neither suffers from gameplay or theme issues anymore. If you would like to see a comeback of old mechanics, create your own support thread for a new job. Summoner is not going to cater to those who'd rather be poison mages or "complexity!" lovers any longer, especially not with the kind of attitudes that crowd brings.