So this game has dps checks but we can't talk about our dps in game?

[Amon-ster]

Sure, but in WoW the regulation is literally nonexistent. What's stopping FF14 from having a damage meter implemented in the game so people actually KNOW they're not playing well, while still regulating it, albeit to a less extreme but still very reasonable extent? After all, ACT isn't what shows you the tank is positioning the boss wrong, the game itself does that, and yet people aren't using this information to be toxic either.

Yeah I'm agreeing with that sentiment. If ACT became legal I don't think the game would become toxic because we already aren't toxic to each other despite the many other ways we can see when someone is causing the raid to wipe.

[Euphares]

I cant say anything about P4S since I havent done it, but it just feels silly and childish to pin all the blame on a single person when its like you said a group effort.

A group is made up of eight individuals.

If seven people are playing at at least 80% efficiency and one person at 20% efficiency. The takeaway isn't and shouldn't be "well none of us were playing at max efficiency so we all have areas to improve." It is going to be "Why are you doing way worse than everyone else?" (Perhaps worded more politely.)


I'm not sure why people are so against being the weak link, it happens to everyone at least once, sometimes it isn't a group issue, sometimes it is just one person bogging the group down, and everyone should be prepared to handle being that person with grace. Its one thing if the group is treating you poorly, but more often than not in my raiding experience people just don't want to or don't handle playing bad well at all.


Ironically enough, some people casual or otherwise really do think they're above criticism/mistakes, and that's why any discussion that dispells this delusion is met with such harsh pushback.

[Michieltjuhh]

Its one thing if the group is treating you poorly, but more often than not in my raiding experience people just don't want to or don't handle playing bad well at all.


Ironically enough, some people casual or otherwise really do think they're above criticism/mistakes, and that's why any discussion that dispells this delusion is met with such harsh pushback.

If I didn't know any better I'd say you were referring to someone from the last two pages. And I approve.

[Atelier-Bagur]

At this point I just give up. Fine, let SE introduced dps meters into this game. Lets see just how well that "jells" with the majority of people and whether it truly improves the raiding community in the long run.

Clearly Im in the wrong here.

[Amon-ster]

At this point I just give up. Fine, let SE introduced dps meters into this game. Lets see just how well that "jells" with the majority of people and whether it truly improves the raiding community in the long run.

Clearly Im in the wrong here.

I just don't really subscribe to the belief that DPS meters are the only thing keeping the FFXIV raid community from turning into WoW, is all.

[Kaurhz]

A group is made up of eight individuals.

If seven people are playing at at least 80% efficiency and one person at 20% efficiency. The takeaway isn't and shouldn't be "well none of us were playing at max efficiency so we all have areas to improve." It is going to be "Why are you doing way worse than everyone else?" (Perhaps worded more politely.)


I'm not sure why people are so against being the weak link, it happens to everyone at least once, sometimes it isn't a group issue, sometimes it is just one person bogging the group down, and everyone should be prepared to handle being that person with grace. Its one thing if the group is treating you poorly, but more often than not in my raiding experience people just don't want to or don't handle playing bad well at all.


Ironically enough, some people casual or otherwise really do think they're above criticism/mistakes, and that's why any discussion that dispells this delusion is met with such harsh pushback.

People are against it because it is for that individual group to decide whether they want to continue on with that weak link, and as is the case with all things you really ought to delve into encounters. You're juggling both the difficulty of an encounter and the requirement of pushing a sufficient amount of DPS. They are only going to get better by doing such. In the particular case of this Miqo'te it is for the team they cleared with to judge them and pass criticisms. If their feedback is being shutdown cuz parse then that's incredibly conceited, especially if they're only trying to offer valid feedback or criticism, and especially in the event that the other group hasn't even progressed that far. If someone sacrifices some DPS to ensure they're able to do all the mechanics adequately enough then that's a perfectly valid solution with merit. - It's just as bad when someone gets overly full of themselves and either greeds and causes a wipe, or outright fails a mechanic. People shouldn't be using a singular clear as the sole indicative measure of player skill or willingness to learn, but rather observe a trend wherein the player still fails to improve over the course of several kills.

It is precisely because of people like they were playing with as to why people are pushing against the idea of it - "Well ur feedback is invalid cuz you have a grey parse" - All feedback and opinions should be treated equally and objectively. Not by someone who is overly vein.

I think there's a prevalent problem in this community in that the way they present the criticism or pointing out of mistakes is.. Questionable, as exhibited by the sheer fact that people are under some false illusion that presenting a criticism will result in a ban. Something actually mentioned barely a couple pages ago on this very thread.

Oh and before someone gleefully comes out with the "Do u even raid bro" - I'm just going to counter that beforehand by saying irrelevant when many of these mentalities permeate into the more casual content, in addition to the simple fact that many of these mentalities are not just exclusive to FFXIV but apply to practically any multiplayer game. So don't bother coming with that.

[Packetdancer]

To be bluntly honest, no one is ever going to actually resolve this debate. And not just because opinions differ, but because both sides are actually right.

Introducing an official parser of some form would absolutely increase toxicity in this game; as I said before, this isn't because a parser is inherently toxic but because the game providing a parser will be taken by some players as implicit permissions from the devs to be jackasses over the data produced by said parser. (I.e., "If the devs didn't want me to say the black mage is a waste of oxygen and internet bandwidth, they wouldn't have the game tell me just how bad the black mage is!") This would hardly be universal, but I guarantee you the number of people emboldened by this would be non-zero.

(Which is additionally problematic as any sort of real-time raid parser is not going to be great at calculating your actual contribution, so the 'objective' number is not going to be as objective as some would like to treat it; it'll measure what FFLogs calls aDPS, meaning it's subject to how well other people in the party are using their buffs and such. To calculate something like FFLog's adjusted "rDPS" with any degree of accuracy would require post-processing the combat log. And that's without getting into the factors influencing healer DPS...)

But conversely, people also aren't wrong that if you want to clear high-end content, for at least some of it the party does have to be doing a bare minimum. Sure, there are fights lenient enough that you can just barely slide through if almost all the group is below-par, provided one or two folks can make up for it. But there are also fights (generally later in a tier) where maybe the entire party doesn't have to be bringing their A game, but they probably need to at least bring their B- game if you want to get through the DPS check. And if you are doing your part, then throwing yourself at the same fight for hours and hours (and hours and hours) only to not clear because other people aren't stepping up... that's going to be frustrating, and a recipe for ire.

Add to that the fact that the lack of any viable tool for console players (other than "get a friend on PC to parse for me") means that even if you only use a parser for self-improvement purposes console players are still at a measurable disadvantage; some sort of official tool in the game would be invaluable for folks on console to work on things. But adding any sort of official tool that provides something that can be interpreted even remotely as being an 'objective' numerical value on 'how good a player are you' is likely to increase toxicity...

And around we go in circles. Neither side is likely to concede the argument because, as noted, neither side is actually wrong in those arguments.

And that? That's the real problem. Not that one side is 'right' and another is 'wrong', but that the ideal solution is somewhere in the middle between the two. Because realistically, both sides of the debate do need to be addressed for a given solution to really be viable.

[Amon-ster]

People are against it because it is for that individual group to decide whether they want to continue on with that weak link, and as is the case with all things you really ought to delve into encounters. You're juggling both the difficulty of an encounter and the requirement of pushing a sufficient amount of DPS. They are only going to get better before doing such. In the particular case of this Miqo'te it is for the team they cleared with to judge them and pass criticisms. If their feedback is being shutdown cuz parse then that's incredibly conceited, especially if they're only trying to offer valid feedback or criticism, and especially in the event that the other group hasn't even progressed that far. If someone sacrifices some DPS to ensure they're able to do all the mechanics adequately enough then that's a perfectly valid solution with merit. - It's just as bad when someone gets overly full of themselves and either greeds and causes a wipe, or outright fails a mechanic. People shouldn't be using a singular clear as the sole indicative measure of player skill or willingness to learn, but rather observe a trend wherein the player still fails to improve over the course of several kills.

It is precisely because of people like they were playing with as to why people are pushing against the idea of it - "Well ur feedback is invalid cuz you have a grey parse" - All feedback and opinions should be treated equally and objectively. Not by someone who is overly vein.

I think there's a prevalent problem in this community in that the way they present the criticism or pointing out of mistakes is.. Questionable, as exhibited by the sheer fact that people are under some false illusion that presenting a criticism will result in a ban. Something actually mentioned barely a couple pages ago on this very thread.

Oh and before someone gleefully comes out with the "Do u even raid bro" - I'm just going to counter that beforehand by saying irrelevant when many of these mentalities permeate into the more casual content, in addition to the simple fact that many of these mentalities are not just exclusive to FFXIV but apply to practically any multiplayer game. So don't bother coming with that.

My only issue with this take is that it's kind of implying that DPS contribution is much less important than performing mechanics. You need both in order to succeed. A lot of people seem to be okay with the idea of voting to remove someone from your group because they simply aren't performing mechanics well but aren't okay with the concept of removing someone from your group because they aren't performing their job's rotation well.

[Euphares]

-snip-

I don't know who you're referring to, I only check this thread occasionally. So I can't really comment on the situation you provided.



For what I can comment on:


Being able to do mechanics + acceptable DPS is hard I agree, but that's why the content is reserved for players who can handle it. I firmly believe some content should be inaccessible to those who don't meet its requirements. The reason why this leaves a bad taste for some is because this game only ever tells you no during Savage/Ex/Ultimate. Which is a mistake. If the game were more upfront with telling its players "hey this gameplay isn't correct." People wouldn't even think twice about wanting to do hard content if they knew that their playstyle was wrong.


But it doesn't. It gives zero feedback. For this reason, ACT and other tools will be used in place of a built-in feedback-loop. I think it is wrong to assume players who are critical do so to be malicious, or that they're conceited. This critique is born from a justified desire to have everyone pull their weight.

If all players are equal, then all players should be subjected to the same expectations and requirements.


Furthermore, it isn't vain to tell someone that their opinion has less merit due to having a poor parse. Within reason, having a < 20% parse means that you are doing something fundamentally wrong, or had a really bad run. While it is permissible for prog runs and can be attributed to playing safe or getting unlucky, after repeat kills it just means something is up.


A player that consistently gets greys will most likely be worse in both theory and in practice regarding the game's combat. This isn't really inflammatory (though it can be used in such a way,) its just the truth. However, getting greys doesn't mean you are bad forever, it just means you need a lot of improvement, so everyone should be given the grace and respect to improve, but in the same token, the grey player needs to understand that they don't have any credentials to back up their opinions, and will be treated as such.

It has been cited multiple times in this thread that it comes down to delivery, but I don't think that's entirely true, the problem is, people don't want to hear anything critical regarding their play.

"It is their right to not want to be critiqued." Is it not my right to deserve a group where all players are performing appropriately? If it is disrespectful to shame someone over their performance, is it not also disrespectful to intentionally not try to meet the same performance requirements everyone else is striving for? These are the questions that lead to such a stark dichotomy regarding performance in this community. People in my opinion, fail to see both sides of the token. For every "victim" being told to play properly, there are three or seven other people having their gameplay experience degraded through no fault of their own.

[Michieltjuhh]

snip

Any form of increase in toxicity that passes boundaries set by SE can be dealt with through regulation. You get rid of the individuals that use it for toxicity, and suddenly there's no more problem with adding an official damage meter, thus having it only positively impact the game.

Except for those players who go into PF with the expectation to get hard carried, since now there's another tool reminding the group that these players are, in fact, underperforming significantly, and do not meet the requirements of the group. And I can't fathom that anyone who doesn't know they're part of this group, would be against an official damage meter because the solution against toxicity incurred by an official damage meter is just as easy as a solution against toxicity incurred by an unofficial damage meter.