[Sage] Fixing Toxikon

[RinaShinomiya]

I think there's a hell of a lot of overthinking going on here.
Ultimately GCD healing is inefficient but sometimes necessary, and Toxicon is a tool for partially refunding the cost of a GCD heal. Partially being the keyword, because if it was a full refund, then GCD healing wouldn't be a sub optimal choice and there would be no weight to your choice to use them.

Why shouldn't it be optimal? Both SCH and SGE are barrier healers who... don't barrier heal. Why is it okay that oGCD heals which aren't tied to any resource (mostly) are fine being optimal heals for DPS than the GCD Heals which are tied to a resource, a resource our class exclusive Materia is built around. Toxicon being MP negative would still deter people from spamming it over and over the only difference is that we wouldn't be punished for pro-active barrier healing like we currently are.

[Teno]

Why shouldn't it be optimal? Both SCH and SGE are barrier healers who... don't barrier heal. Why is it okay that oGCD heals which aren't tied to any resource (mostly) are fine being optimal heals for DPS than the GCD Heals which are tied to a resource, a resource our class exclusive Materia is built around. Toxicon being MP negative would still deter people from spamming it over and over the only difference is that we wouldn't be punished for pro-active barrier healing like we currently are.

I agree, if anything toxikon as an oGCD would finally push people to use GCD heals, something SE has been somewhat wanting to do for ages. DPS remains the same and it might seem too strong on the healing side but as you said its mp cost would deter people and it would in fact add layer of depth as you would finally need to manage (or at least a little more) that pink resource.

This would definitely make the job much more appealing and feel busier with Eukrasia+GCD+Toxikon, almost like a combo (and we'd get to see more of this badass animation).

[EaMett]

Why shouldn't it be optimal? Both SCH and SGE are barrier healers who... don't barrier heal. Why is it okay that oGCD heals which aren't tied to any resource (mostly) are fine being optimal heals for DPS than the GCD Heals which are tied to a resource, a resource our class exclusive Materia is built around. Toxicon being MP negative would still deter people from spamming it over and over the only difference is that we wouldn't be punished for pro-active barrier healing like we currently are.

I might be reading a little too much in between the lines here but the problem with an upside (or break even) to GCD healing is that GCD healing then becomes optimal or "easy" and you end up just gcd healing everything not worrying about oGCD timer/resource management at all. It greatly reduces the skill ceiling and would most likely make the healers even more boring to play.
You could add timers and management to GCD healing (afflatus) but then it becomes pretty much the same as what we have now with oGCDs (which was also what afflatus was before, an oGCD substitute).
The entire shift is actually much harder to make now that there is NO cost to oGCD healing. That was IMO, the biggest mistake they made this expac. It's fine if it's a niche thing on one healer, but now it's all of them.

[RinaShinomiya]

The entire shift is actually much harder to make now that there is NO cost to oGCD healing. That was IMO, the biggest mistake they made this expac. It's fine if it's a niche thing on one healer, but now it's all of them.

I fully agree and playing WHM in dungeons makes that very clear. If you want to weave anything between Holy III spams you gotta do it the old ShB way of using Lillies or Swiftcast. Doesn't help ofc that between Thin air getting split to two stacks, Beni getting a second stack and getting aqua veil WHM got a whole lot more to weave now than in ShB but at least Afflatus is a double weave window and not DPS negative in dungeons. Still feels bad not being able to slidecast with Holy to dodge AoE's.
They really haven't updated the healers well for that GCD nuke change. It's a great change for mobility but now the previously dedicated Weave/mobility skills feel a little out of place.

Because oGCD's come with a cooldown, thus requiring some thought or planning on encounters with higher damage, while GCD heals can be spammed mindlessly as long as you have the mana.

So the solution is to just not GCD heal at all because its a hard DPS loss. Going oom in 10-ish GCD's would punish GCD healing spammers which already disincentives GCD spamming enough by itself. Besides i feel like you're overselling Cooldown management. If unavoidable raidwides come up every 30s people will just throw out Ixolche / Fey Blessing or Indom / Afflatus rapture / CO or Earthly on cooldown. If tank busters come up every 60s people will just use Exaltation / Aqua veil on cooldown. If Pushback mechanics come up every 120s people will just use Surecast on cooldown. Incredibly engaging gameplay. This might be more dire in Savage fights but 80% of content in this game isn't savage and only roughly 10% of the playerbase even does Savage raiding.

If Toxicon was optimal you might as well ignore half your single target oGCD kit and just EDiag whenever someone needs single target healing.

So it's better to make GCD healing not optimal so you can ignore 33~50% of your kit instead. I really wanna play a DPS where ignoring half of my rotation is optimal gameplay.

It's not engaging gameplay.

The same can be said about oGCD healing. Just pressing a button in between your Nuke to heal without consequences is boring asf. at least in ShB you had a rougly 75~90 potency to pay for that but not anymore. Giving us a more elaborate DPS rotation might fix this but right now both healing styles aren't engaging. Right now if you want to be a proactive healer your options are Damage mitigation oGCD or a 2m cooldown barrier oGCD. The main meat & potatos of proactive healing, applying Regen or Shields before AoE raid wides to mitigate damage is disincentivised even though it forces you to pay attention to what the enemy is casting, which you could argue is more engaging. And people have argued that since Tankbusters got a visual indicator. I'd rather GCD heals aren't dead weight in our toolkits and be usable without being punished so heavily than focus entirely on reactive oGCD healing. And i firmly believe that GCD heals being MP negative would be more than enough to disincentive people from spamming them by itself.

[Seraphor]

So it's better to make GCD healing not optimal so you can ignore 33~50% of your kit instead. I really wanna play a DPS where ignoring half of my rotation is optimal gameplay.

As opposed to ignoring all of your DPS GCDs?
It's one or the other, that's how healers work in this game, do you spend a GCD on a heal, or on damage?
Sage has heals VIA damage. literally the worst healer to favour GCD heals.

So which 33-50% of your kit do you want to ignore? Because it has to be one of them at any given point in time.

A DPS ignoring half their kit? Already happens. When you're against a single target, you ignore all of your AoE skills, and vice versa. Same thing, you apply the correct tool to the task at hand.

[Liam_Harper]

The same can be said about oGCD healing. Just pressing a button in between your Nuke to heal without consequences is boring asf.

The consequences are the cooldown. If you waste all your oGCD's on small scratches and a big mechanic comes up before they're back up, you're screwed. Healing by oGCD alone on a fight with actual damage requires planning. Whether that's "boring asf" is subjective and down to opinion.

GCD heals don't. You just throw them out blindly and they'll always be there. This is why most bad healers are Medica II spammers. MP isn't a good limiting factor either, because it rewards bad cast uptime and stacking silly amounts of Piety.
...Unless we want to put a cooldown on GCD heals too. I'd be up for that.

[ty_taurus]

I think there's a hell of a lot of overthinking going on here.
Ultimately GCD healing is inefficient but sometimes necessary, and Toxicon is a tool for partially refunding the cost of a GCD heal. Partially being the keyword, because if it was a full refund, then GCD healing wouldn't be a suboptimal choice and there would be no weight to your choice to use them.

Toxicon could do with a minor potency buff, to make it marginally more useful in single target contexts, but that's about it.

Well firstly, it's actually not a refund because it's the same potency as Dosis III, therefore you're not actually gaining any partial amount of DPS unlike with Ruin II or Afflatus Misery. GCD healing is inefficient but sometimes necessary, yes; however, Sage's kit is built in such a way that E. Diagnosis is so far down the food chain that you're realistically never going to be in a situation where it's the best choice for your remaining tools. The only way to actually get value out of Toxikon is to gain stacks during prepull and phase changes, which as has been said, is a valid way to take advantage of the resource.

I'm not really trying to say that Toxikon is failing at doing specifically that, but the idea of a resource that you have maybe 3 of across an entire fight because generating more requires one of the least optimal plays you could possibly perform mid-combat is just a disappointing mechanic.

If anyone wants to call it whining, then fine, but I stand by my original statement that the existing Addersting system is best described as inoffensive, lukewarm, and tolerable--none being words I am personally willing to settle for silently.

[elioaiko]

I agree, if anything toxikon as an oGCD would finally push people to use GCD heals, something SE has been somewhat wanting to do for ages. DPS remains the same and it might seem too strong on the healing side but as you said its mp cost would deter people and it would in fact add layer of depth as you would finally need to manage (or at least a little more) that pink resource.

This would definitely make the job much more appealing and feel busier with Eukrasia+GCD+Toxikon, almost like a combo (and we'd get to see more of this badass animation).

This doesn't solve the problem. GCD healing feels bad because you're only doing it for a DPS skill. Taking it off the GCD only forces it to be another DPS skill to be used on CD. Look at Aetherflow and Energy Drain debacle, you're squeezing out as many EDs as your kit will allow. Taking it away only makes the job feel clunky and punishing since you want to drop stacks for MP refresh as well. Tying healing to damage has not worked for SCH and the devs have been trying to delete it but only to bring back ED because without it, it's just overheal.

Same will go for SGE if they let Toxicon use Addersgall as a resource. It's 100% healthier for the job if they kept both of those resources separate.

I agree with some others, getting it through Rhizomata would make using it worthwhile since it generally sits there sometimes. That means you get a healing stack and a movement dps tool every 90s. I like that it's there for movement, but forcing GCD healing only turns it into a Misery situation where it's not worth it unless HAVE to use it which most of the time you can just use Taurchole or Haima. At least with WHM's limited oGCD kit, using a lily isn't the end of the world as its a direct heal with ST and AoE variants as opposed to a single target shield that will fall off.

[Teno]

This doesn't solve the problem. GCD healing feels bad because you're only doing it for a DPS skill. Taking it off the GCD only forces it to be another DPS skill to be used on CD. Look at Aetherflow and Energy Drain debacle, you're squeezing out as many EDs as your kit will allow. Taking it away only makes the job feel clunky and punishing since you want to drop stacks for MP refresh as well. Tying healing to damage has not worked for SCH and the devs have been trying to delete it but only to bring back ED because without it, it's just overheal.

Same will go for SGE if they let Toxicon use Addersgall as a resource. It's 100% healthier for the job if they kept both of those resources separate.

I agree with some others, getting it through Rhizomata would make using it worthwhile since it generally sits there sometimes. That means you get a healing stack and a movement dps tool every 90s. I like that it's there for movement, but forcing GCD healing only turns it into a Misery situation where it's not worth it unless HAVE to use it which most of the time you can just use Taurchole or Haima. At least with WHM's limited oGCD kit, using a lily isn't the end of the world as its a direct heal with ST and AoE variants as opposed to a single target shield that will fall off.

Yes but the issue with scholar is that there is a conflict between using the resource for dps and for healing. With oGCD Toxikon it would be dps neutral, drain your mp "fast" and still require an addersting.

It would still retain its use as a movement tool since you would be using diagnosis on the move to generate that addersting, and it would remain largely unused otherwise due to its total mp cost, when there's no healing required. A player who knows when healing is required would still be spamming dosis most of the time. That's how I see it.

[RinaShinomiya]

This doesn't solve the problem. GCD healing feels bad because you're only doing it for a DPS skill. Taking it off the GCD only forces it to be another DPS skill to be used on CD. Look at Aetherflow and Energy Drain debacle, you're squeezing out as many EDs as your kit will allow. Taking it away only makes the job feel clunky and punishing since you want to drop stacks for MP refresh as well. Tying healing to damage has not worked for SCH and the devs have been trying to delete it but only to bring back ED because without it, it's just overheal.

Same will go for SGE if they let Toxicon use Addersgall as a resource. It's 100% healthier for the job if they kept both of those resources separate.

I agree with some others, getting it through Rhizomata would make using it worthwhile since it generally sits there sometimes. That means you get a healing stack and a movement dps tool every 90s. I like that it's there for movement, but forcing GCD healing only turns it into a Misery situation where it's not worth it unless HAVE to use it which most of the time you can just use Taurchole or Haima. At least with WHM's limited oGCD kit, using a lily isn't the end of the world as its a direct heal with ST and AoE variants as opposed to a single target shield that will fall off.

How would it be anything like ED? ED is flawed because it shares the same resource as a good chunk of SCH's healing kit. Unlike SGE, you don't have to spend your AF stacks to press the AF button again and get your 20% mana. Playing SCH without ED is purely a "it feels wasteful to press AF while still having stacks" problem even though you aren't really wasting anything. You gain nothing from spending those leftover stacks and even back in 5.0 people suggested the remaining stacks would convert to extra MP but the devs care so little about healers they'd rather bring back an ability that makes Scholars leveling experience absolutely wild for new players thanks to the SMN rework in 5.0. Time to play Arcanist, get ED at level 10 forget it exists at level 30, remember it exists at level 45 but this time it works completely different. The more i think about the more my 5.0 SCH hate fever comes back up.

Sage technically has a much bigger need for a addersgall spender but i'd much rather it doesn't get one. A skill that converts Addersgall to Addersting would be preferable in the current iteration because Toxicon isn't a DPS gain in it's current form like ED. You can Press that conversion skill 3 times and gain nothing but 21% MP because pressing Toxicon over Dosis gives you nothing but 1.5s shorter cast time. Even when talking about Dyskrasia the DPS gain of using Toxicon over that is tiny but in dungeons you actually wanna use Addersgall for you healing skills since they come with good mitigation and keeping 10% mitigation for 45s thanks to 2 Addersgall skills cooldowns lining up is what probably makes SGE the best Dungeon healer right now. (also in dungeon using Toxicon without DPS loss comes up more frequently than raids).

Taking the different approach Teno suggested. Toxicon being oGCD would remove it as a movement button but it would just be damage neutral and since you can carry 3 stacks there is no reason to press it on cooldown, meaning you can keep it for burst phases. It'd literally just give you the damage back you lost on using E.Diagionis in every other scenario. I personally don't like that idea simply because it would make Sage less mobile. Yes, it's already the most mobile healer but being able to reliably use Toxicon for movement rather than Phlegma would be preferable even if the current system of using Toxicon being used as a last ditch effort due to Phlegma + Icarus not being enough is technically a more interesting movement optimization system.

The only thing wrong about the "Misery Situation" is that Afflatus Misery lacks 340 potency to be DPS neutral. If it was literally nobody would complain about using Lilies to heal and not having many oGCD's on WHM. And this thread is trying to fix the exact same issue Toxicon is facing. It's simply not worth interacting with Toxicon mid-fight because its 165 potency and doing the 330 potency attack & using Druochole is just a better solution to the problem. It's simply not worth interacting with Misery because its 225 potency and doing the 310 potency attack & using Tetra is just a better solution to the problem.