Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

[tearagion]

.

As usual, almost nobody is arguing the thematic value of the rework until someone else (usually you) makes some stupid statement about it "being a true final fantasy summoner now" as if that isn't one of the most nebulous statements you could make. Most everyone I've heard opinion from isn't unhappy with the theme they're unhappy with the gameplay, because it's below standard even compared to other simple jobs, and jobs just released. Even Blue Mage shows more thought put into having a nuanced DPS rotation. Stop conflating gameplay and thematics to push whatever weird narrative against old SMN mains you seem to have.

[aveyond-dreams]

Those of us with a long history with the franchise don't think about dot management when they think about Summoner, mixing that up and letting that take precedence over summon magic for the last 8 years was a mistake that caused more trouble than it was worth in the end as evidenced by the fact the rework happened, and if you want more abilities all you have to do is be respectful and be patient. Chances are, if you do that then no one will take any issue with it.

If you are unable to do that then there are various other ways to pass the time in-game as opposed to continuing to going in circles with this topic. The choice is yours to make and I sincerely hope you are able to find something fun to do in the meantime because it's a long way from here to late March/early April for 6.1. If you want to continue down the route of nonstop complaining then it is only natural there will be those who will oppose you and resist every step of the way.

[tearagion]

Summoning has been all over the map with different complements and capacities, but you don't care. You don't even care that people aren't talking about ARR or HW SMN outside of niche examples of gameplay they enjoyed. Acknowledging that would annihilate 50% of your arguments and maybe force you to face any of the myriad of clearly outlined issues the SMN job has after its rework. I'm not going to afford you any more respect as you will not afford anyone else the respect of meeting their arguments or concerns on the same level. Instead you lord above them with a fabricated moral high ground, a feeble understanding of the game, and a cherry-picked history of the franchise.

[Gruntler]

The one equalizer on these forums is that by design, it is impossible to reply to a thread without bumping it. So love or hate summoner, know that any thread you bump, any argument you drag out will serve only to make its parent more visible. For those trolling and arguing in bad faith, consider that for all your efforts, you might inadvertently be aiding the opposing party with your participation.

And that's why consolidating commentary into one thread instead of splitting the same feedback into fifty threads is more effective. Having the same people respond to ten threads doesn't make it ten times the feedback nor does it make the feedback ten times as valuable.

Nor does complaining about them not responding directly within threads, that sort of dialog is usually reserved for things like Live Letters, where everyone can be communicated with and design intent can be made in a clearer way.

But let's be honest, is there any complaint in, say, this thread that isn't already addressed with 'The job was reworked so we could have a template to work with and add to in the future, because the old design was too bloated and it had reached a point where we could not work with it any more'? If there is, great. But if it's all 'The job feels like a template and like there's parts that need to be added later' well... duh.

And... ultimately, potency changes will silence a lot of the vitriol around the job. It always happens--buff potencies and then most complaints just... disappear.

I'm not saying there isn't flaws with the job either--I feel it needs an extra use of Energy Drain every minute so that it doesn't feel like Aetherflow's only use is to dump Festers under Trances, and to make the Aethergem phase have a bit more to do given it's primarily instant-cast-based rotation, and it needs Ruby Rite to have a bit more oomph to justify the cost it puts on movement (Garuda doesn't need this because Slipstream slaps)--but just repeating 'I'm booooorrrrrrrred' in a bazillion threads is non-feedback and not actionable outside of 'Well we need to do something.' and it's that kind of feedback that leads to 'well, this isn't what we asked for' stuff.

[Caduagm]

Those of us with a long history with the franchise don't think about dot management when they think about Summoner.

Again this facade you're trying to show. We with a long story with the franchise have never seen a Summoner using books. All of them are different games with different thematics. You saying that only shows you're a fake Final Fantasy fan. Girl, go do some studying.

[aveyond-dreams]

Summoning has been all over the map with different complements and capacities, but you don't care. You don't even care that people aren't talking about ARR or HW SMN outside of niche examples of gameplay they enjoyed. Acknowledging that would annihilate 50% of your arguments and maybe force you to face any of the myriad of clearly outlined issues the SMN job has after its rework. I'm not going to afford you any more respect as you will not afford anyone else the respect of meeting their arguments or concerns on the same level. Instead you lord above them with a fabricated moral high ground, a feeble understanding of the game, and a cherry-picked history of the franchise.

Again this facade you're trying to show. We with a long story with the franchise have never seen a Summoner using books. All of them are different games with different thematics. You saying that only shows you're a fake Final Fantasy fan. Girl, go do some studying.

Keep in mind you're speaking to someone that has played basically every version of Summoner in the franchise, with the iteration we got in Shadowbringers being my first 80 at the time. After giving that as fair a shot as I could have, I then abandoned it and made my peace with the fact that the job would never live up to my other experiences outside FFXIV.

It's not a high ground or a "facade," it just is what it is. I could talk endlessly about how and why I liked the other versions outside FFXIV prior to 6.0 but that doesn't seem like it'll get through. You are not going to convince me that the state of affairs prior to 6.0 was worthy of being called a Summoner let alone worth my time to play as on a purely mechanical level. I like things that are what they should be and don't strain my hands in the process. There's no need to remain upset over this anymore, what is done is done.

Again, the choice as to how to go about things remains in your hands. I do not consider either of you bad guys, but I do believe that there are better ways to handle things than this. For what it's worth I forgive you for your present tone, given that it appears directed to me specifically for clicks and likes as opposed to feedback you'd like to see passed on to the devs. Hopefully in the future you can adopt a more positive outlook on the class and enjoy it for what it is and the direction its going in.

[Caduagm]

Keep in mind you're speaking to someone that has played basically every version of Summoner in the franchise, with the iteration we got in Shadowbringers being my first 80 at the time.

With the awful and samey arguments you're bring to every SMN thread, I don't believe you at all.

[tearagion]

I don't care about clicks or likes I just don't want to see the same already-dismantled garbage regurgitated every time someone expresses even the slightest dissatisfaction with the SMN rework.

[CKNovel]

It's not a high ground or a "facade," it just is what it is. I could talk endlessly about how and why I liked the other versions outside FFXIV prior to 6.0 but that doesn't seem like it'll get through. You are not going to convince me that the state of affairs prior to 6.0 was worthy of being called a Summoner let alone worth my time to play as on a purely mechanical level. I like things that are what they should be and don't strain my hands in the process. There's no need to remain upset over this anymore, what is done is done.

I invite you to play once again all the games including a SMN.
Please do not forget that the "poster characters" for SMN are Rydia, Eiko, Garnet and Yuna. 3 of them being white mages.

The more you try to defend the current iteration, the more you show ShB SMN was closer to FF Summoners than EW SMN. The more you dig into its imperfections.
Also "There's no need to remain upset over this anymore, what is done is done." if SMN is ever updated in a way that displease you in 7.0, I believe I can count on everyone here to answer you this exact same line.

Remind yourself that XIV is a game that keeps being updated, Feedback can be communicated. PLD, MCH and DNC will receive numerical buffs and DRK might see some changes in 6.1.

[aveyond-dreams]

I invite you to play once again all the games including a SMN.
Please do not forget that the "poster characters" for SMN are Rydia, Eiko, Garnet and Yuna. 3 of them being white mages.

The more you try to defend the current iteration, the more you show ShB SMN was closer to FF Summoners than EW SMN. The more you dig into its imperfections.
Also "There's no need to remain upset over this anymore, what is done is done." if SMN is ever updated in a way that displease you in 7.0, I believe I can count on everyone here to answer you this exact same line.

Remind yourself that XIV is a game that keeps being updated, Feedback can be communicated. PLD, MCH and DNC will receive numerical buffs and DRK might see some changes in 6.1.

I mean you can choose to believe that if you wish but again someone whose done it all like I have isn't thinking of poison magic and only being able to summon a full sized summon once every several minutes with so much irrelevant "buildup" in between. Most games you just press a button and it appears, like how things work in EW. The associated subjob with most Summoners is never something that revolves around watching dots tick, poison-themed or otherwise.

A bit sad that we still have egis for so many levels, but since I've been spending most of my time doing 90 content I'm not super affected by it and for future levelling next expansion I get to use my full summons the whole time during the msq and 90-100 dungeon runs. Also given the fact that I've spent the majority of my time on other jobs since the day FFXIV launched due to old Summoner's failings it isn't the end of the world for me if job changes don't adhere 100% to my desires.

Paladin invoking memories of Holy Knight from Tactics, Red and Black Mage both having always been generally fun and well-designed. I go with the flow. Come what may, there really is no losing here for me since my enjoyment isn't contingent on the state of any one particular job. Usually if things go wrong somewhere there's something going well somewhere else and I go try that instead. As others have mentioned feel free to leave as much feedback as you wish but if the old playstyle and level of "complexity!" is what you decide to continue clinging to it may be best to save those ideas for a future job addition seeing as whoever did the rework doesn't seem to be of a similar mind when it comes to that.

They clearly said enough was enough, time to add in a pure Summoner using whatever resources we have available, let's start off with a clean base so we can add and change things over time and cut the stuff people aren't liking. If that's their thinking, especially after having received overwhelmingly positive feedback from people that boils down to "we love this and please give us more!" then I fail to see how convincing the other side's arguments are given that they can be summed up with "I was special for playing this class, I can't accept you changed things. I feel the other side ruined my class."